The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor - Page 4

***Earniel*** · 05-06-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't know Eärniel, Fingolfin was keen on being second to the title High King of the Ñoldor. Fingolfin and Fëanor were not only half-brothers, they were also rivals. Not that it is any excuse for Fëanor.

Quite possible. I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.

Maedhros · 05-06-2003, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Who ever said Fëanor never got the chance to defend himself?

You need to be there in order to defend yourself. Fingolfin could have waited for his half brother to arrive and then make the complain to their father. Simple and the right thing to do.

***Earniel*** · 05-07-2003, 02:21 PM

He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself.

But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.

Falagar · 05-07-2003, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family.

Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself.

Of course you don't want to have your (hypothetical) brother in when you're complaining about him, but if your brother walks in on you while you're talking about him behind his back, of course he'll be mad. I would have been mad to, if I found someone talking about me behind my back, especially if it had been my stephbrother who wanted to take my place as the successor (sp?) of my father.

Maedhros · 05-07-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

I just never thought about it that way while reading the Silmarillion. Didn't notice that motive.

In the Shibboleth of Fëanor is stated more clearly, not in the Published Silmarillion.
I will probably post the quote later but in the Morgoth's Ring: Annals of Aman, there is a part in which Finwë says something like: As long as the ban last upon Fëanor my son, I will not meet my people nor those who rule in my place.
Ohhhhhhh.

Artanis · 05-07-2003, 04:30 PM

I believe this is the quote:

Quote:

One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor indeed came, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë, While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tuna, I hold myself unkinged, and will not meet my people, nor those that rule in my stead.'

Fëanor came to the festival, met Fingolfin and they were reconciled.

Attalus · 05-13-2003, 07:40 PM

I was reading HoME 4- The shaping of Middle-Earth, and I found it interesting that the original name for Tirion-on-Tuna was Tun, on the hill Cor. So the Tun/Tuna name was going to be in there no matter what. I like Tirion-on-Cor better, myself.

Finrod Felagund · 05-22-2003, 02:05 PM

But, wouldn't Finwe have wanted to be with Feanor, and see his sons reconciled? Because he said he would not go to Tuna while Feanor was banned. But at this particular point, Feanor was allowed back. Why was Finwe so stupid. He should have gone along. If he had, he wouldn't have died!

A curse on the stiff necks of the elves.

matthew · 02-07-2004, 11:42 AM

You know, I think Cassiopela is wrong on the destruction of the sun and moon at the same time as the destruction of Arda. I mean, after all, they were created sortof in the middle of its history. I think I remember reading something about how at some the Silmarills will be gathered together and Yavanna will break them and with their light regrow the two trees. if so, I don't remember where I read it. In HoMe I think......

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-09-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps

Well, I never thought of them being so large, just because it says this about after Beren had cut the Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.

From the puplished Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition,1977

Quote:

As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a living lamp, but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

***Earniel*** · 10-05-2018, 08:24 AM

A point that annoyed me this chapter is finding out the Valar never told the Eldar of the coming of Men. It was a stupid thing to keep that from them and not just because Morgoth could then use it to drive a wedge between the Valar and the Noldor. But what was any good reason to keep it a secret in the first place? I can't think of one. They were teaching the Eldar pretty much everything else. Why withold this info?

Just think of the possibilities if the Valar had told the Elves of Men and that they were to be their teachers. What if the Eldar had loved the idea? What if they decided that with the help of the Valar they could return to Middle-earth and help heal the hurts there in order to make everything ready of the Second Kindred's arrival? They could have kicked those Valarin lazy butts in gear to take up the task they had so long ago abandonned.

There would still be Melkor, waiting like the snake in Paradise, but he wouldn't have been able to min this particular vein of potential discontent. And Middle-earth would have been is no much a better state, even if only until Melkor found another wedge to hammer on.

Which brings me to the following, why were the Valar so unconcerned witht the fate of Men? they went to war over the idea that the Eldar would be awakening in a dangerous place but after Melkor's capture, they left Middle-earth in shambles, asleep and full of monsters, fully knowing the Secondborn would be arriving afterwards. Why didn't Ilúvatar remind them of their task either?

***Valandil*** · 10-05-2018, 12:28 PM

I wonder if they thought they were not supposed to tell. They might have been uncertain what plans Eru Illuvatar had for the interactions of the two... and didn't want to pre-empt anything.

While on the surface you have a point that they seemed to care more about preparing the earth for Elves than for Men - I think this might just be about them gradually withdrawing themselves further and further from the concerns of Middle Earth as time passed by. Whether from weariness, resignation, or something else... they just made themselves less involved the more time went by.

***Earniel*** · 10-07-2018, 04:50 PM

True, the fact that they were even less concerned about Middle-earth after bringing a good deal of Elves to Aman might indeed be a good indication that they were slowly losing interest and involvement. While Yavanna and Oromë often urged action before the Awakening of the Elves, this seems wholy absent after the Elves' March west.

It can hardly be that they thought Men could deal with all the monsters and dormant nature better than the Elves. I guess us mortal Men just aren't as shiny as them Eldar.

05-07-2003, 02:21 PM	#63
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	He couldn't have known that Fëanor would arrive before the rest of the council. If the council gathered, it would have been too late to keep it within the family. Yes, I know it requires your presence in order to defend yourself. But would you want your brother present (if you have one) as you make a complaint about him to your father? I know I wouldn't, it may be just me but I can only give my own point of view. I know that if I made a complaint about my (hypothetical) brother, my father would know how much truth was in my words and he would certainly have asked the brother in question for his point of view later on before judging or taking action. That way the brother would have gotten a fair chance to defend himself. __________________ We are not things.

05-13-2003, 07:40 PM	#67
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I was reading HoME 4- The shaping of Middle-Earth, and I found it interesting that the original name for Tirion-on-Tuna was Tun, on the hill Cor. So the Tun/Tuna name was going to be in there no matter what. I like Tirion-on-Cor better, myself. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

05-22-2003, 02:05 PM	#68
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	But, wouldn't Finwe have wanted to be with Feanor, and see his sons reconciled? Because he said he would not go to Tuna while Feanor was banned. But at this particular point, Feanor was allowed back. Why was Finwe so stupid. He should have gone along. If he had, he wouldn't have died! A curse on the stiff necks of the elves. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!" Last edited by Finrod Felagund : 05-22-2003 at 02:43 PM.

02-07-2004, 11:42 AM	#69
matthew Enting Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 75	You know, I think Cassiopela is wrong on the destruction of the sun and moon at the same time as the destruction of Arda. I mean, after all, they were created sortof in the middle of its history. I think I remember reading something about how at some the Silmarills will be gathered together and Yavanna will break them and with their light regrow the two trees. if so, I don't remember where I read it. In HoMe I think...... I have always thought of the Silmarils as being HUGE, you know, like soccer ball sized... although that would give even Morgoth neck cramps. __________________ Nai anar caluva tierelyanna Flame me. Go ahead. Matthew in 2028. One by one we're bringing them back. Vote Nader. Stop the hamster eaters!!!! End global warming! Turn on the AC!!! Gadzooks! Run!

10-05-2018, 12:28 PM	#72
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I wonder if they thought they were not supposed to tell. They might have been uncertain what plans Eru Illuvatar had for the interactions of the two... and didn't want to pre-empt anything. While on the surface you have a point that they seemed to care more about preparing the earth for Elves than for Men - I think this might just be about them gradually withdrawing themselves further and further from the concerns of Middle Earth as time passed by. Whether from weariness, resignation, or something else... they just made themselves less involved the more time went by. __________________ My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!

10-05-2018, 08:24 AM	#71
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	A point that annoyed me this chapter is finding out the Valar never told the Eldar of the coming of Men. It was a stupid thing to keep that from them and not just because Morgoth could then use it to drive a wedge between the Valar and the Noldor. But what was any good reason to keep it a secret in the first place? I can't think of one. They were teaching the Eldar pretty much everything else. Why withold this info? Just think of the possibilities if the Valar had told the Elves of Men and that they were to be their teachers. What if the Eldar had loved the idea? What if they decided that with the help of the Valar they could return to Middle-earth and help heal the hurts there in order to make everything ready of the Second Kindred's arrival? They could have kicked those Valarin lazy butts in gear to take up the task they had so long ago abandonned. There would still be Melkor, waiting like the snake in Paradise, but he wouldn't have been able to min this particular vein of potential discontent. And Middle-earth would have been is no much a better state, even if only until Melkor found another wedge to hammer on. Which brings me to the following, why were the Valar so unconcerned witht the fate of Men? they went to war over the idea that the Eldar would be awakening in a dangerous place but after Melkor's capture, they left Middle-earth in shambles, asleep and full of monsters, fully knowing the Secondborn would be arriving afterwards. Why didn't Ilúvatar remind them of their task either?

10-07-2018, 04:50 PM	#73
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	True, the fact that they were even less concerned about Middle-earth after bringing a good deal of Elves to Aman might indeed be a good indication that they were slowly losing interest and involvement. While Yavanna and Oromë often urged action before the Awakening of the Elves, this seems wholy absent after the Elves' March west. It can hardly be that they thought Men could deal with all the monsters and dormant nature better than the Elves. I guess us mortal Men just aren't as shiny as them Eldar.