The Silmarillion: Ch 7: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

[Falagar]

Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...

Perhaps I think it means that it shall be known when Fëanor "returns", he will tell what they were made of. Or Manwë/Eru will reveal it...

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Perhaps I think it means that it shall be known when Fëanor "returns", he will tell what they were made of. Or Manwë/Eru will reveal it...

That's a good explanation. Also I remember reading somewhere that the Silmarils will be broken and the light within will be used to rekindle The Two Trees.

This is what Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman, says about the Silmarils:

Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence within the walls of this world could mar it or break it. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended Light of the Trees of Valinor which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the uttermost darkness the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it, and gave it back inhues more lovely than before.

Fat middle, where can I read about Nimphelos?

(I hate it when my typos are quoted - himslef indeed )

[Fat middle]

From the Grey Annals

1300. Of the building of Menegroth.

$22. Now Melian had after the manner of the Maiar, the
people of Valinor, much foresight. And when two of the ages of
the Chaining of Melkor had passed, she counselled Thingol that
the Peace of Arda would not last for ever; and he therefore
bethought him how he should make for himself a kingly
dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to
awake again in Middle-earth. He called therefore upon the
Enfeng, the Longbeards of Belegost, whom he had friended,
and sought their aid and counsel. And they gave it willingly, for
they were unwearied in those days, and eager for new works.

And though the Dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held
themselves paid. For Melian taught them much wisdom, which they were eager to get; whereas Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Cirdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. And one there was great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as the starlight upon the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Enfeng prized it above a mountain of wealth.

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Am I the only one that sees something obscure in this sentence? Perhaps Melkor had something to do with their creation...

Actually, the whole passage seems to me to be somewhat overwrought. How would anyone know anything after the end of the world? Except, presumably, in the afterlife.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
All right, I admit, I don't quite understand this passage. When the Sun passes and the Moon falls, the Earth will be unmade as well (I assume, but perhaps I’m wrong). The elves are bound to the Earth, so I thought when the Earth is destroyed, the elves would die.

Originally posted by Attalus
Actually, the whole passage seems to me to be somewhat overwrought. How would anyone know anything after the end of the world?

From the prophecy of Mandos, as given in the Quenta Noldorinwa:

Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Eärendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, aso that the light goes out over all the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them.

On a side note: There was a question in one of the other Fëanor threads (there seem to be so many of them now) whether he (Fëanor) could be redeemed, and I think this quote says that he could.

Fat middle, thanks for the Nimphelos reference. Also, I'm still digesting your long post about the Fëanor and the Silmarils

[Rían]

I've always thought that Fëanor made the Silmarils because .... he wanted to. He loved gems, he got an idea of how to make gems, he fiddled around with it, then perfected it and made the Sils. I assume Fëanor used "the dews of Telperion and the rain that fell from Laurelin" that Varda stored in the "great vats like shining lakes" to make the Sils - "And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor".

Unless Varda had asked people to NOT take the dew/rain out of the vats, or unless Fëanor felt in his heart that it was wrong to take some without permission, I don't think anything was wrong at this point. I wonder if the dew/rain in the vats was ever used by anyone else for anything? Or if people would just walk by and look at the beautiful lakes? Was it 'hands off' at the lakes, or would people dip their hands in the beautiful water and let it fall between their fingers back into the lakes? Or throw some up into the air and watch it fall back - little droplets of light.... That must have been a beautiful sight!

I think most actions are neutral in themselves - there's nothing wrong with me sitting here having fun on Entmoot, unless I do it so much that my responsibilities suffer and I hurt others or myself (e.g., we eat at McDonalds every night because I don't make dinner 'cause I'm too busy selfishly Mooting, or I don't help the younger kids with their homework for the same reason, etc.) I just picture Fëanor getting this great idea and carrying it through, with no wrong motives at this point in time. Where the wrong comes in, IMO, is when he starts to love them with a greedy love, and that wrong attitude leads to all sorts of horrible choices and actions on his part later on down the road.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
From the prophecy of Mandos, as given in the Quenta Noldorinwa:

Artanis, what book is that in?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Artanis, what book is that in?

HoME 4, The shaping of Middle-Earth.

[Rían]

thanks

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Fat middle
What kind of study? was this study what led him by the wrong way?

After all, both rings and Silmarils reflect the idea of the original sin in christianism, whose core is that all evil came after men hear the voice of Satan. Melkor's voice was very dangerous...

So what I think you are saying, is that you don't entirely trust the author of the Annals when he states that Melkor didn't participate in any way in the making of the Silmarils. You suggest that Fëanor's studies prior to the fashioning of the gems did in some way corrupt him, perhaps by Melkor's influence, and made him 'fall', as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden. Is that right? It's an interesting thought.

I agree with RÃ*an also, that Fëanor's original idea was to make something beautiful, for the joy of it, as I believe was also the driving force behind the changes of the language of the Ñoldor. Maybe he also wanted to show off his skills, or even compete with the Valar and make things as beautiful as the Two Trees?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Artanis
So what I think you are saying, is that you don't entirely trust the author of the Annals when he states that Melkor didn't participate in any way in the making of the Silmarils. You suggest that Fëanor's studies prior to the fashioning of the gems did in some way corrupt him, perhaps by Melkor's influence, and made him 'fall', as Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden. Is that right? It's an interesting thought.

Yes, that's the idea. Though Melkor's influence doesn't make Feanor less guilty of whatever he did.

See that in the rings plot Sauron is instructing Celebrimbor & co. as Melkor could have instructed Feanor with the Sils.

[Falagar]

Yes, that's the idea. Though Melkor's influence doesn't make Feanor less guilty of whatever he did.

See that in the rings plot Sauron is instructing Celebrimbor & co. as Melkor could have instructed Feanor with the Sils.

But Tolkien rejects this:

Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in the lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor, son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared as he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no councel from him.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Falagar
But Tolkien rejects this:

Nope. That's the author of the Quenta Silmarillion (Pengoloth, i think) not Tolkien.

Tolkien speaks in his letters and some other sources. In the Sil. we hear the story as was told by an elf (or by a Numenorean, if he had finished the transformation of the myths).

[Attalus]

Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? Though, apparently the making of jewels was a pastime of the Noldor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Attalus
Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he?

He may have learned much from Aúle, and also from Mathan. And even if the Silmarils were unique, Galadriel was able to make the phial that she gave to Frodo. The phial had captured the light of Eärendil's star, as the Silmarils had captured the light of the Two Trees, and it also shone all by itself, also in the darkness.

[Attalus]

You know, I haven't thought of the Phial in a long time. When I first read the books, I felt like Galadriel had made the Phial for Frodo, expressly, like the night before, but read later that the song in my sig was referring to it. Had it been around a long time, like the Elessar? I wonder.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Attalus
Interesting. I had thought that Feanor rejected Melkor utterly, and did not listen to him. But, he would have to have learned of such an astounding technical feat from somewhere, wouldn't he? Though, apparently the making of jewels was a pastime of the Noldor.

I doubt that Morgoth would have had any part in their making. Someone who desires the destructon of light so much, and is so deeply into the darkness, would surely not be able to contribute to the making of the Silmarilli, a kind of "ultimate light"?

[Earniel]

I agree, I don't think Morgoth had any hand in the creation of the Silmarils or in Fëanor's jewelmakingskills. But I remember reading somewhere (that's all I seem to do, don't I? I always remember reading something but never where. It's driving me spare! hey that rhymes... )

As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught Fëanor though in reality Fëanor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined.

[Falagar]

As I said I remember reading somewhere that later on, Morgoth often bragged about having taught Fëanor though in reality Fëanor hated him and would never have accepted any teaching of Morgoth. *sigh* I wish I'd remember where I read it. Not knowing where I saw it always makes me unsure whether I really read it or just imagined.

Was it this passage?

Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in the lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor, son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared as he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no councel from him.

From the Silmarillion, can't remember the chapters name (think it was "OF Fëanor and the Unchanging of Melkor")

[Earniel]

Yes! *hugs Falagar* Thank you!

*smacks herself on the forehead* Oh man, that's from the chapter I reviewed myself only a few weeks ago! *hides in the gloom under a rock in deep, deep shame* I'm so ashamed of my self.....