The Silmarillion: Ch. 6: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

[Attalus]

Alas, I would love to see some evidence that Feanor loved anything besides himself and his creations. I really think of him as an Adam figure, without any sympathetic traits that I can see. In Addams' Fall/ We sinned all. Besides having two of the most loathesome of JRRT's creations for sons (Celegorm and Curufin).

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think it's reasonably to surmise that Fëanor could have used other teachers too.

I agree . However, the only person that I recall being singled out as "great smith" and "most dear to the heart of Aulë" is Mahtan, and I imagine he was one of Fëanor's primary teachers.

I could surmise that Fëanor is an easy target to villify too.

I don't think I'm vilifying him - do you think I am? - I think he is a wonderful character with amazing talents, but Tolkien portrays him as having some major character flaws, and because of his great talents and abilities, the effects of his bad choices were worse than those of, say, a simple Wood Elf.

Since there is no evindence then, it just an opinion.

I never said it was anything else, Maitimo, right from my first post on the subject. I think it is, however, a fairly well-educated opinion (as opposed to, say, someone whose only exposure to Tolkien is Jackson's movies ). Fëanáro was indeed a 'spirit of fire' - he did everything with all his heart, including loving his mother and father, and their tragic deaths hurt him deeply. I've always liked Tolkien's comment on this: (Fëanor has just learned his father has been killed - the first to die in Aman):

from Morgoth's Ring, the Annals of Aman
But now Fëanor ran from the concourse and fled into the night, as one mad both with wrath and with grief; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

[Rían]

Hey, Attalus, I see my last quote answered your wish to see evidence that Fëanor loved anything besides himself and his creations! I didn't even see your post because you posted while I was typing Fëanor also loved his mother (from the Shibboleth - "Fëanor loved his mother dearly...") - but I don't remember seeing any other comment about him loving anyone else, or actions showing that he loved anyone else.

[Attalus]

Point taken, Rian. Thanks.

[Maedhros]

since there IS evidence that Fëanor does not seem to be against basely using others to further his own interests.

And where is that evidence? Who did he use to further his interests? Who did he force to go against their will?
The Ñoldor who followed him willingly, there were those who choose to remain behind, no one forced the others to go, Finarfin abandon the quest.
Futhermore, Fëanor left Fingolfin's host in the Wastes of Araman, they were still in Valinor, they could have returned to Aman, but they choose to go to ME.
Who did he force to make the silmarils? I thought that Fëanor worked ever alone and took no counsels except that of his wife and that was for a while.
The only thing that barely resembles such an accusation is when he fought the Teleri for their ships.
Who did Fëanor used when he got ahead and went to Angband to fight Morgoth and his balrogs? Who did he deceived into helping him?
I can finally see the difference between your posts and those of Artanis now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I can finally see the difference between your posts and those of Artanis now.

Well, that wasn't very nice.

No, Feanor did not use force Maedhros, but he did use tactics to achieve his ends, as did his sons.

From the published Silmarillion:

Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
Many other words he spoke, potent as were long before in Tirion the words of his father that first inflamed the Noldor to rebellion. after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

IMO, that is how Feanor achieved his goals. Not a good thing.

[azalea]

It is my opinion that those who value the retrieval of stolen jewels, no matter how beautiful, above all else, including one's own life and the lives of others, is someone who has a limited ability to love others, no matter how brilliant a craftsman of earth and language he is.

[Attalus]

Amen, Azalea. Jewels, after all, are mere things, though these were powerful artefacts indeed, and totally not worthy of causing an outrage like the Kinslaying.

[Maedhros]

IMO, that is how Feanor achieved his goals. Not a good thing.

Hehe. I don't recall the Ñoldor being coerced into that. Some even turned away from that, didn't they.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Hehe. I don't recall the Ñoldor being coerced into that. Some even turned away from that, didn't they.

From the Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor" -

Little foresight could there be for those who dared to take so dark a road. Yet all was done in over-haste; for Fëanor drove them on, fearing lest in the cooling of their hearts his words should wane and other counsels yet prevail...

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I think azalea's summary was spot-on


And for the record, when I think of Fëanor, my first feeling is one of sorrow for his anguish. I have no interest in vilifying him. However, I also value character more than talent, and so I cannot overlook his wrong actions, or totally excuse them because of the sorrows he went through.

[Maedhros]

I didn't realize the Ñoldor were little children with no mind of their own. Doh.

[Rían]

Was Tolkien wrong when he wrote that, then?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I didn't realize the Ñoldor were little children with no mind of their own. Doh.

I matter of conflict and crises they wer almost entirely innocent. Apart from the death of Miriel, nothing much bad had happened any of them for thousands of years.

[Rían]

From a different angle - the positive one -

When I think of:

• Fingon - I think of his incredible feat of bravery in rescuing Maedhros, even though he "knew not yet that Maedhros had not forgotten him at the burning of the ships". That is one of my favorite sections in the Sil - that Fingon the valiant would rescue Maedhros, his old friend, even though he didn't know that Maedhros didn't take part in the ship-burning.
  
  Fingolfin - I think of how he left Valinor "against his wisdom, because Fingon his son so urged him, and because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor." And he "set at naught" Fëanor's drawing of his sword on him.
  
  Finarfin - I think of how he also left Valinor "for like reasons" (same as Fingolfin's - didn't want to be sundered from his people or leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor), even tho he was "most loath" to go. And he was "filled with grief" after the slaying of the Teleri.
  
  Finrod - I think of how, when he was in the dungeon of Sauron, he burst his bonds and fought the werewolf with his hands and teeth to save Beren. JRRT writes of him that he had a "noble and generous heart", in addition to his "high courage".

So those guys, half-brothers and cousins to Fëanor, showed integrity, courage, and love FOR OTHERS by their actions. I just don't see it recorded anywhere that Fëanor did things like this. I basically see Fëanor's immense talents deservedly praised, but not his character.


ps - and another note on Fëanor's powers of persuasive speech -

from Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman:
Fëanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it. Now he was on fire, and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they have ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride; and they moved the people to madness like the fumes of hot wine.

[Rían]

by Maedhros
And where is that evidence? Who did he use to further his interests? Who did he force to go against their will?

I did say Fëanor used others to further his own interests; I don't think I said anywhere that he "forced" others to go against their will (I assume you meant leaving Valinor). So I'll only address the first point.

• *I think he used the Noldor in general to further his goal of getting the Silmarils back. From the Sil, Of the Flight of the Noldor: "After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War he shall have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, then we and we alone shall be lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!" And as it was said in my earlier quote, Fëanor was afraid they would cool off and change their minds, which would make it harder to get the jewels back.
  
  *The slaying of the Teleri and the taking of their ships is the worst example of Fëanor's using others to further his interests, IMO. As was said in the Prophecy of the North, "Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman." This action was deservedly called "wicked". And after the Prophecy was spoken, Fëanor "hardened his heart", but Finarfin was "filled with grief".
  
  *Abandoning Fingolfin at Araman was another example, IMO - the people were suffering "anguish from the cold". And what is so sad, IMO, is what Fëanor says when Maedhros asks about sending the ships back for the others - he laughs "as one fey" and says, "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved.....Let the ships burn!" It's bad enough to leave the people in a terrible place, but to call them "needless baggage" and then to burn the ships - that was really cruel, IMO.
  
  *And finally, even when he died, the only recorded thing he said was that he cursed Morgoth and "laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father". It just seems sad that he doesn't seem to feel sorrow over his actions.

I think what sums it up well is from the opening of "Of the Sun and the Moon" in the Sil ("they" refers to the Valar) -

And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.

And that's my opinion It looks like our opinions will just have to be different, but that's part of what makes Entmoot interesting

[Rían]

One final quote that I think is very insightful into the whole matter, along the lines of what azalea posted -

from the Sil, "Of the Silmarils"
For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils witha greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
One final quote that I think is very insightful into the whole matter, along the lines of what azalea posted -

Very good posts, RÃ*an

[Maedhros]

Abandoning Fingolfin at Araman was another example, IMO - the people were suffering "anguish from the cold". And what is so sad, IMO, is what Fëanor says when Maedhros asks about sending the ships back for the others - he laughs "as one fey" and says, "What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved.....Let the ships burn!" It's bad enough to leave the people in a terrible place, but to call them "needless baggage" and then to burn the ships - that was really cruel, IMO.

You are right, Fëanor wanted that the Ñoldor go with him to ME to regain his Silmarils but he leaves Fingolfin's and Co hosts in the Wastes of Araman. Hmmmmm, so he goes to all of this trouble to recruit the Ñoldor and then leaves them behind. Doesn't makes sense, unless he regreted having them go to ME and therefore gave them a chance to return unharmed to Valinor.
Think about it, if Fëanor is the way you portray him, he wouldn't have said to the other Host, you know what, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come with me, so stay here. Fëanor was not nice, that is the unnice way to leave them out of a big Mess.
Why did they go forth anyway, because they were proud.
There was this guy Melkor who was a very powerful Vala, who perverted some of the Ñoldor, but that has been overlooked in this thread.

I matter of conflict and crises they wer almost entirely innocent. Apart from the death of Miriel, nothing much bad had happened any of them for thousands of years.

And I thought that Melkor was a bad influence on the Ñoldor.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Very good posts, RÃ*an

Thanks, FM

Originally posted by Maedhros
There was this guy Melkor who was a very powerful Vala, who perverted some of the Ñoldor, but that has been overlooked in this thread.

No, I put up a quote about that - see the last quote in my post about 3 posts up ... (from "Of the Sun and the Moon" in the Sil). A very poignant and beautifully written bit of prose.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
You are right, Fëanor wanted that the Ñoldor go with him to ME to regain his Silmarils but he leaves Fingolfin's and Co hosts in the Wastes of Araman. Hmmmmm, so he goes to all of this trouble to recruit the Ñoldor and then leaves them behind. Doesn't makes sense, unless he regreted having them go to ME and therefore gave them a chance to return unharmed to Valinor.

I disagree. According to the Silmarillion he left Fingolfin behind because he feared the treachery that was predicted in the Doom of the Noldor.

But the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few. Many had been lost upon their long journey, and there remained now not enough to bear across all the great host together; yet none were willing to abide upon the western coast while others were ferried first: already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor. Therefore it came into the hearts of Fëanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly, [...]

He treated them like needless luggage indeed.