Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[Darkside Spirit]

For the moment, all I have to say is that justification by faith alone seems an incredibly convenient way to promote a religion.

More will come later, when I've had time to read all of this thread and the thread that preceded it.

[afro-elf]

faith: belief without proof, in what is told by one who speaks with out evidence of things without parallel

a casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything

what is faith

a hollow excuse. if the only way you can accept an assecrtion is by faith then you are conceding that it can not be excepted upon it own merits


people do nor argue over things they have complete conficence it.
we aren't arguing if the sun will rise tomorrow
WHY becuase truth does not demand faith

[Ñólendil]

Okay folks, let's end this debate. We're drawing straws. Yeah, and whoever draws the shortest straw is wrong and is going to Hell.

[Darth Tater]

Any "contradictions" found in the Bible can always be explained. Try me. The most common form is seeing one rule in the OT and another in the NT and saying they contradict each other. The answer to this is very simple. In OT times when you died you went to hell (with the obvious exceptions of course). That's because God had not yet sent his Son to redeem our sins, so the human race could not get into heaven. Therefore, the laws that governed man HAD to be different, since a just mans reward wasn't found in heaven for a LONG time.

Of course, that's the most simple explanation. There's also the fact that the Jews were surrounded by pagans, the temptations of the time were different, the needs of the people were different. And don't bother telling me those things didn't suddenly change when Jesus showed up. I'm not an idiot. But Jesus' teachings created a different atmosphere in the world. Perfect? You bet it ain't, but different.

[afro-elf]

In OT times when you died you went to hell

where in the bible does it say that?

Just because it was a different time you condone

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!"
Psalms 137:9
.

DT3:6
And we utterly destroyed them... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Rape of a slave woman is to be punished by scourging the victim (the slave woman) -- but the rapist's sins "shall be forgiven him." LEV 19:20-22


as far as contradictions here is one for you

why is it that Judas was hanged in one gospel and fell of the cliff in another.


tackle the hard ones

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

"why is it that Judas was hanged in one gospel and fell of the cliff in another. "

Huh?

"" Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me he has truely sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who will reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted"
C.S. Lewis The Last Battle
N.B Tash is an extreme example. I don't mean all other deitys are like him.
Actually, The Last Battle is full of good examples of how salvation works. Ch. 14 - the end."

I disagree with Lewis. That was not inpsired by God.

About the verses in James: it is not saying that faith alone cannot save you, it's saying that the proof of faith is good works!

"I just wanted to say 'Thank you' to Sakata. He/she is the first person I've seen here that talks about taking joy in religion and not just thowing rules back and forth! "

I do not beleive in throwing rules back and forth. In fact, I don't even have a religion: I have a relationship.

[Ñólendil]

Oh, come on people, I made a funny!

[afro-elf]

why is it that Judas was hanged in one gospel and fell of the cliff in another. "

Huh?

Judas Iscariot's death (The betrayer of Jesus). Did he hang himself or did he just fall face forward and die?

(Mat 27:5 NRSV) Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself.

(Acts 1:18 NRSV) Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.


sorry i said fell of a cliff. i should have said headlong to his death

However that does not change the contradiction

Any "contradictions" found in the Bible can always be explained. Try me. The most common form is seeing one rule in the OT and another in the NT and saying they contradict each other.

explained away and explained are not the same.

the most common ones attepting to be explained by votaries is the OT/NT

there are HUNDRED's of contradictions and they are not mostly about the OT/NT problems

but JC said that old laws STILL stood. So all the blood and violence of the OT stands today.

PLEASE do not gloss over the difficult parts.

The bible is fraught with errors.

[easterlinge]

So the consensus here seems to be: you are saved if you have faith and good works.

[Finmandos12]

So the consensus here seems to be: you are saved if you have faith and good works.

Well, heres what I believe... You are saved by faith. Good works are the natural result of your faith. Faith causes good works.

[Darkside Spirit]

"Faith causes good works"

Absolute rubbish. The vast majority of trouble, suffering and war through history has been caused by religion. Look at the Crusades, for one example; they were an example of what happens when a whole nation becomes so wonderfully faithful and bases their institutions on it. The most recent example is Hitler. He was extremely strong in terms of religious faith and it motivated him to do what he did.

I just about concede that many religious people are also "nice people". But there are many nasty religious people and many nice atheistic people. Don't ever try to claim that religion = moral fortitude, because it just doesn't hold water and it is extremely offensive.

[Mathron]

As much as I have stated my own arguments against the bible - or rather, against the seeming preaching of worship over good deeds, I must also discourage all those who seem to be attacking the idea of 'faith'. Faith is a perfectly acceptable way of choosing a religion, and remember that choice is not always conscious, but potentially learned or inwardly determined.

I am a very firm believing in not knowing. I don't know the right answer, and it could be catholicism. I don't think it is, but I certainly don't have any proof against it.
To Afro elf: You have defined faith as belief without proof. This is a very vague definition. Is it belief with no proof whatsoever? If so, than it does not exist, for the bible is proof. It is a very circumstantial and tentative proof, but it offers a degree of it nonetheless. Any idea conceivable can have proof in that it was, at the least, plausable in thought. So you can't have no proof whatsoever.
Meanwhile, if you would state that faith is belief without absolute proof, I would contest that nothing is absolutely proven. Science itself is just another belief system, and logically speaking, irrational at its roots. A good majority of science is based on empirical evidence and experimentation. If you perform an experiment 2000 times, and get the same result each time, then you will believe that the next experiment will give the same results, if everything else remains the same. However, this is not, technically, logical - it is inductive reasoning. The problem with inductive reason is that it is, itself, inductive in origin. Why do things that happen multiple times remain the same when we do them again? Because they always have before. Hence, you can't use inductive reasoning to proove its own validity, and science becomes a system of belief. Actual proof is nearly impossible to develop.
Hence, faith or science are just as fallible.

[Ñólendil]

*waves frantically* Hey! Over here! I was being funny! Acknowledge me!

[Mathron]

Ohohohohahahahehehe
Happy?

[anduin]

I think I am going to change your user title to "Resident Funny Man."

[Darkside Spirit]

Hey! can I have a title too?

[easterlinge]

One thing I've noticed, different professions seem to attract different stances on God.

Astronomers seem to give God's existence the benefit of the doubt, at the very least, and most of them are spiritual if not adhering to a specific religion. Physicists are like this too, with Einstein exclaiming "God does not play dice!!" and Stephen Hawking seeking to know "the mind of God" through physics.

Biologists seem to regard the very idea of God anathema. So do many mainstream research psychologists.

There is something called the Chomsky controversy, in which Noam Chomsky hypothesized that the ability to use symbolic language is a function specifically built into the human brain only. Many Psychologists find this abhorrent because it seems to suggest the existence of a "designer"--- even though Chomsky himself never implied that. The reaction of the psychologists is an indication how atheistic some branches of psychology has become, such that even the barest hint of a suggestion is found offensive.

What I'm saying is that various professions and disciplines seem to attract very different people with regard to beliefs instead of a mixed bag in all scientific disciplines. I find this to be very curious.

[afro-elf]

Mathron


bravo, thanks for a well written reply

: You have defined faith as belief without proof. This is a very vague definition. Is

I maybe have left myself open for a straw man assault.

Your arguments to that statement I would GENERAllY agree with.

It was taken from ambrose beirce, however,
and were meant to be facetious. No damned smiley face

the other two statements

a casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith does not prove anything

and

if the only way you can accept an assecrtion is by faith then you are conceding that it can not be excepted upon it own merits


these are probably more accurate ways to see my POV.

as far as your problems of induction bertrand Russell and and david hume would be proud

Hence, faith or science are just as fallible.

To say "faith Or science is JUST as fallible" is like saying all opinions are equal.


YES there is the problem of induction YET the world in not PROVED by logical PROOFS

this was one of the mistakes of aristotle.

"i admit that reason is a feeble flame, a fickering torch, yet it is the only light, extinguish that and naught remains
We can obtain reliable albeit imperfect and tentative knowledge via science


when science speaks of truth/fact/"proof" it can only mean confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisonal consent

people often think of facts and theories as being on some sort of heirarchal scale. but facts are data and theories explain the data
theories are not just guesses. they are theoretical frameworks that explian existing data and make predications

there ARE varying degrees of certainty between theories.


as far as the verication of induction science may be better viewed as falsification.

where with induction a million succeses could still not prove thing BUT with Falsification ONE counter example and there goes the theory

its a matter of probability.
yeah spirits may exist but with the evidence the probability very low.
when I turn on the electricity it works and if it does we can fix it.
I don't pray for my lights to work i turn on the switch


again with this

Hence, faith or science are just as fallible.

I'm not gonna jump off a building because gravity is JUST a theory

if it was JUST as fallible why don't we get equal results

if a child is badly injured are you " not meaning you as mathron" just gonna pray that the child is healed. or are you going rush her to a hospital?

If science IS just as fallible WHY does it work so well?

Since the art of making fire and creating handcrafted tools, our civilization has come a long way. Science and Technology are making advances at an amazing rate. From telephones to the Internet, calculators to computers, cars to rockets and satellites, we are submerged in a sea of discoveries and inventions made possible by Science. Fields like Medicine and communications have made inroads into our cultures and thus our lifestyles.


Every bit of food you eat, clothes you wear, the houses we live in, and anything else we know or make.

Science has done more for the development of western civilization


ALL invention and innovation

Domestication of animals
Calendars
Mathematics
Metal smelting

Irrigation
Writing
Wheeled vehicles
Draft animals

Animation
Architecture
Art
Accounting
Agriculture
Forestry
Manufacturing
Mining
Telecommunications
Transportation
Computers
Robotics
Medicine
Nutrition
Aviation
Fireworks
Astronomy
Biology
Chemistry
Earth science
Physics
Anthropology
Archeology
Economics
Cognitive science
Geography
Psychology
Sociology
Aerospace
Engineering
Metrology



Crafts
Music
Radio
Photography
Television
Theater production

Writing
Reading
Printing press for magazine and books

hey two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer

if we wiped every vestiage of "FAITH" meaning religion, new age etc off of the face of the earth no major loss

and then did the same with science we would naught but cold naked savages

if they were JUST as fallible ... well you get the idea.

Also thank you for such a good reply i really appreciate it.

[Finmandos12]

if we wiped every vestiage of "FAITH" meaning religion, new age etc off of the face of the earth no major loss

Hardly. we would end up like "A Brave New World."

Christianity and science are not two incompatible, opposite things. Many famous scientists were Christians.

[galadriel]

Well, heres what I believe... You are saved by faith. Good works are the natural result of your faith. Faith causes good works.

I agree.... but I'll clarify, since people are having difficulty with it.

Faith *should* cause you to do good works, at least in Christian terms. But, as we all know, Christians aren't always the nicest kids on the block (look at the Crusades, the Cath. church in the middle ages, etc.)

God calls you to do good works, but you still have the choice to do them. He wants you to be good for the sake of helping people and glorifying him, but he doesn't count up your brownie points at Heaven's gates. We are all horrible sinners no matter what, and only through Christ can we get to Heaven.

Basically, God doesn't want you to be a "good christian" in fear of heaven. You should do these things because it's what's right.