Religon/Christinanity

now this is going to be an interesting thread...

first, i'm very glad to find true Christians out there.

second, my beliefs - the best way i can describe them is "pagan existentialist." (meaning: i have no proof what's right, & really no idea what will happen once this life is over. but i choose to believe, because i can do nothing else) however, i do believe that historically there was a man Jesus.

third, on the Virgin Mary - it is biologically possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex. it's a one-in-a-million chance, but it has happened. as for her being a liar, i won't get into that because i do not know her.

fourth, on faith - Shan, you said earlier that you don't believe, & that's frightening. i hope this doesn't sound preachy, but it seems that you realize you need something to believe in (or at least beliefs themselves) & are ready to accept faith if it comes to you. one thing i've noticed is that faith comes at the exact time you need it most. and if you're waiting for faith to find you(which it sounds like you are) then it will come to you.

fifth - reincarnation. i do believe in it very strongly, based on memories that i cannot reconcile any other way.

sixth - "If you believe there is no God, then you can't afford to be wrong. All I can really say to convince people that Jesus is the savior, Mary was a virgin, and God is the creator of everything is: If you do not believe in this you must be 100% correct, because if you are wrong you got big consequences coming your way." from Saunagast's post - there is a verse somewhere in teh Bible that says all evil done in the name of good still belongs to the evil one, and all good done in teh name of evil belongs to the Lord. something i've come to realize recently is that what is usually more important than the religion you claim to be is how you live your life - i believe that if you lived a good life, learned whatever lesson this life holds, & treated others fairly, then you will be rewarded; either in a future life or in some distant Heaven. i find it hard to believe that any merciful god(s) would condemn a soul simply for using a wrong label to describe itself.

seventh, i haven't said this before but Gwaihir, i love your ending quotes.

i am sorry for the length of this post. Shan, please forgive me.

aryne *

arynetrek, for an eerie and frightening alternative explanation for Reincarnation, check my first post!

Do not reject that explanation out of hand!

For those of you who fear the depredations of institutional religion, this is my favorite way to worship...

www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/fellowship.html

These photos were taken the other night when we gathered for our pastor's 25th Spiritual Birthday!

And I highly recommend a study of St. Joan of Arc!

www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/joan.html

There now appeared upon the ravaged scene an Angel of Deliverance, the noblest patriot of France, the most splendid of her heroes, the most beloved of her saints, the most inspiring of all her memories, the peasant Maid, the ever-shining, ever-glorious Joan of Arc.
[c] ...[/c]
Amid an immense concourse she was dragged to the stake in the market-place of Rouen. High upon the pyramid of faggots the flames rose towards her, and the smoke of doom wreathed and curled. She raised a cross made of firewood, and her last word was, "Jesus!" History has recorded the comment of an English soldier who witnessed the scene. "We are lost," he said. "We have burnt a saint." All this proved true.

Joan was a being so uplifted from the ordinary run of mankind that she finds no equal in a thousand years. The records of her trial present us with facts alive to-day through all the mists of time. Out of her own mouth can she be judged in each generation. She embodied the natural goodness and valour of the human race in unexampled perfection. Unconquerable courage, infinite compassion, the virtue of the simple, the wisdom of the just, shone forth in her. She glorifies as she freed the soil from which she sprang. All soldiers should read her story and ponder on the words and deeds of the true warrior, who in a single year, though untaught in technical arts, reveals in every situation the key of victory.

Joan of Arc perished on May 29, 1431, and thereafter the tides of war flowed remorselessly against the English.

--Winston Churchill

Which ones you, Gil?

David

Sadly I don't have the time for this thread, I wish I did cause it's a topic I have very strong feelings and convictions about.

Shanamir, thank you. That's a way to state your opinions about the Theotokos that isn't offensive.

I'm an Orthodox Christian, a religious group that is rather small in the US but really a major religion in the world (you may know it as Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or Eastern Orthodox. We're American )

Orthodoxy is actually the original form of Christianity. In 1054 the Catholic Church broke away from the Orthodox. Many blaim the Catholic Church for this, saying they were lazy, or heretical. I believe that the seperation between the two was caused by the distance between their centers. The Orthodox Church was centered in the Holy Land and Byzantium, while the Catholic was in Italy. This seperation probably caused the schism because the Catholic Church lost its connection

BTW, I am NOT condeming Catholics, or the Catholic Church. I hold the most leniant viewpoint on this historical fact.

It is interesting to note that while Europe was plunged into the dark ages the Byzantine Empire was flourishing in an age of scientific discovery. The Orthodox and Catholic church calendars are slightly different because the Catholics based it only around the summer and winter solstices. Many Orthodox monks of that time were incredible astronomers, and they developed a calendar based on Genesis (It uses the stars, sun, and moon) which lasts for thousands of years!

Oh, and I forgot the most important invention that we can thank the Byzantine Empire for: the fork

Hey Gil that picture sends shivers down my spine. I worship at a local 'fellowship'and it looks like that very personal everybody knowing everybody lots of singing and rejoicing i felt like i was looking at a picture of my house on thursday nights (its held in fact at my house) where we study the word and stuff, interesting very interesting. Im not catholic or anything just Christian, very cool, do u call them fellowhips? (or twig meetings?)

I'm the one behind the camera! I got everyone but me!

We just casually refer to it as the Fellowship. I think it actually has a real name, Christ Life Fellowship. Most of us also belong to more formal churches.

Glen is in the blue shirt, sitting on the piano bench. Frances (who decorated!) is the brunette beside him.

I need to try to put their albums on the web! Their singing is more like folk music than anything else. (Of course, we sing lots of the old hymns together, but Glen and Frances are a treat!)

The Mrs is the ravishing redhead in the back. You see the back of her hair in the last picture!

What I find the most interesting about this is that if history repeats itself, as it always does, today's religions will be viewed as myths by the civilizations of thousands, maybe millions of years hence.

We relegate the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and other ancient religious stories to the status of "mythology," because no one believes in it anymore and it's just viewed as an interesting story. But at the time, those Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans really believed in Osiris or Zeus or Jupiter and would be greatly offended if you referred to their beliefs as myths.

Just like the Bible, the ancient civilizations' myths contain facts about the time period they are describing, but include divine intervention as the cause of events. But we take the Greek myths with a grain of salt - like when they start ascribing military victories and the like to the pleasure of the gods, and setbacks as the displeasure of the gods.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is, but I always found it fascinating to speculate on what future civilizations would think of our current culture. (And it's inevitable that our current civilization will crumble, since nothing lasts forever, and new religions would likely spring up)

so Greek & Russian Orthodox are just different names for the same beliefs? and are either of these similar to Coptic Christianity?

and, more on reincarnation - Gil, that quote does make an interesting point. the thought of pure-evil beings roaming the earth is one of the things i always put into the "let the gods deal with this - nothing i can do about it" category. i think there probably are evil creatures in this world, and they will inevitably influence people. but how can one recognize true good & the sublime without getting an occasional brush with evil?

bmilder - while reading the Sil the other day a thought struck me: "now that the Elves are departed, does Elbereth miss their songs & reverence?"

aryne *

...uh.

I guess there doesn't need to be a point to the thread, but to talk about Religion and Christianity.

bmilder makes a great point.

A difference that the Jews, and therefore Christians and Moslems as well, argue between their faiths and those things we classify as myths would be the claim that the Scriptures are a direct record (blurred though much of it is) of the Creator's intervention throughout prehistory and history leading toward the Messiah.

Christians claim the Messiah has come and gone and will come again. We've maintained that Faith for 2,000 years. The Jews have maintained theirs for more than 5,000.

That's pretty decent staying power. The myths didn't make it, though they may have recorded some truth as well.

Christians believe our Faith will last until the End.

It's fun to make comparisons of the ancient faiths. Take Ragnarok and Armageddon for instance. That was one of the reasons the Norsemen took to Christianity rather swiftly, I think. And Odin being hung upon Yggdrysyl? (Or how ever you spell that tree's name...)

arynetrek, I don't think we can avoid evil. It comes looking for us and is often fair to behold! But to know Absolute Good is miraculous and all words fail to describe and all doubts fail to survive, the encounter. Even so, you still have your free will in the face of it!

I have not seen anyone postulate this before, but I think Tolkien wrote of this kind of thing when Frodo was upon the Seat of Seeing on Amon Hen, and caught between the Eye and the Voice. In the end, he was still free to make his choice. I dare say, Tolkien might have drawn from his own experience in writing that.

I expect I shall get the chance to ask him!

Well, I am an agnostic with Islamic tendencies. An agnostic is someone who does not believe that a god exists but does not believe that a god does not exist. I feel that there is no proof or rationale for the existence of a god, or the non-existence.

As for the Islamic tendencies... I embrace the culture more than the faith, but basically I just feel that Islam is beautiful, and trust me, it is hard not to believe in anything. I do not believe anything; but I still come close to believing in Allah.


Legolas

The issues that you brought up in your post which opens up with "now this is going to be an interesting thread..." (I specify a post because my short-term memory's shot to heck by a concussion) are quite interesting.

"it is biologically possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex"

I suppose so. However, with only logic to back this up, it would seem that the odds of her giving birth to a whole human would be even more scarce - without the male chromosomes, and the odds of giving birth to a _man_ would be even scarcer - isn't the gender of an infant determined by a presence or absence of a certain hormone from the male?

"what is usually more important than the religion you claim to be is how you live your life - i believe that if you lived a good life, learned whatever lesson this life holds, & treated others fairly, then you will be rewarded; either in a future life or in some distant Heaven. i find it hard to believe that any merciful god(s) would condemn a soul simply for using a wrong label to describe itself."

This is an extremely deep and delicate point.

For a novel outlook about the "label" issue, you might want to read Acts 17:22-30 or so (I prefer NIV, but all the translations should give you the general idea).

Ok, since I was aways two days, posts will be replied in chronological order...

Gwaihir
That issue comes from when I was 6 to 12 years old. Everybody at school called me by my famyly name and I was really disrespected. So I don't tolerated any of my friends to call me by my famyly name only (Mr. Beaumont is really ok but not Beaumont alone). 2nd, Shanamir Duntak (Duntak being the famyly name of course) is a real fiction character, based in the world of Middle-earth rolepaying game, that I have been playing for over 7 years now. I'm feeling really attached to him and he's my second skin... That's about why. Sorry to tell you my life .

Sauganast

1st: here in Quebec, NOBODY would ever thank GOD along with his parents, etc, when he receives an award. Just to tell you how different (and low) is our faith now.

2nd: Isn't God misericordious and good? wouldn't he pardon me for not believing in him? Why is that so If he wouldn't allow me to heaven, then he would not be perfect...

Gwaihir again
Even if Christianity was a fabrication (a possibility far too unlikely to be real) living a Christian life would benefit you regardless. God's laws and principles equal a happy and healthy life, even if you take out the relationship with the Lord.

YES! I do agree with that as I said here in my first post: What I believe in:

[...]
- The moral values christianity teaches us. I believe everyone should live by those life principles.

Those principles are similar to those proposed by Baden Powell (scouting foundator).

I try to follow God's and B.P.'s principle every day of my life as I find them to be really important.

Aryne

I am indeed waiting for some faith, as I KNOW it would be good for me.
I do agree with your 6th comment, as I said just before... That's why I'm giving plenty of time in my community, participate in many benevolent action, etc. I try to live a good life!

And BTW I don't find YOUR posts to be so longs, Gil'S ones are and the one I'm doing now is

Tater
Theotokos???
What's that?

Aryne again
I'm SURE there are such evil spirits/being roaming the earth and influencing people. My brother IS influenced by some NOW. If anybody can help me on that matter, I would appreciate. I love my brother and wanna help him.

Johnny

I think Aryne was refering to being pregnant without penetration, not without sexual relations. And in this case, chances of giving birth to a normal, male infant are the same as any other woman.

By the way, it's the two 23rd chomosones that are deciding the sex of the child. Each human being have a pairs of each chromosome. In the seeds, there is one ch. Woman have XX 23rd chromosomes and man XY. The mother always gives a X and the father gives an X or a Y if it's a Y, you'll have a male, if it's another X, then It will be a beautiful girl. That's all for the biology class..

________________
EDIT: By the way, sorry for the long post, but I had a lot to reply to.

...so I must be witless!

Shan I will lay this matter of your brother in prayer. More later.

Thank you for that Gil I really do appreciate.

"I think Aryne was refering to being pregnant without penetration, not without sexual relations."

Well, I have a fairly liberal opinion of what are and are not sexual relations...

"it is biologically possible for a woman to get pregnant without having sex"

So, yeah, it could go either way. However, since she talked about the "one-in-a-million" chance - and the chances of pregnancy from non-penetrative sex is much higher than that... Well, we can ask arynetrek for clarification.

It's not a big deal, anyways.

"Those principles are similar to those proposed by Baden Powell (scouting foundator)."

I believe that would probably be because he was inspired by them... (Powell by the Bible, not the other way around :P)

"My brother IS influenced by some NOW. If anybody can help me on that matter, I would appreciate."

I will pray for him.

Oh, and as an aside, I've heard an interesting quote... I believe it stemmed from World War I - if I find a source, I'll let you know.

"I believe in Heaven because I have seen Hell."

"Isn't God misericordious and good? wouldn't he pardon me for not believing in him? Why is that so If he wouldn't allow me to heaven, then he would not be perfect..."

Hmmmm.... about that word "misericordious"... I would appreciate a definition, because the one I got involved a dagger used to kill people in medieval warfare...

"If he wouldn't allow me to heaven, then he would not be perfect"

That sounds incredibly egotistical. To presume that your own judgment is better than God's...

(Edit: I forgot my cool closing quote)

"What if I told you that you didn't have to stay?
What if I told you that peace is real?
What if you heard that there was a better way?
Would you come home if you knew the way?"
-Excerpt from Twenty-Three, by Project 86

Shan & Johnny -
yes, i was referring to getting pregnant without penetration. i think everyone's got the idea - i can explain this further, but i don't know if it's Entmoot-appropriate. and since i didn't know the exact odds, i used the phrase "one-in-a-million."

Gil, Shan, & Johnny (i think) -
i wasn't debating the existence of evil spirits or their appearance on Earth - i was trying to say basically that evil creatures are here & they're going to screw with us; but they'll probably always be here & since there isn't anything we can do about it, let's let the gods deal with them.

^^^ i hope that's clearer. and while i have not seen pure evil on this earth (or in any dreamland i've visited so far), i don't doubt that it's out there.

whoever recommended Acts 17 to me -
this reminds me of something i used to think - that all the religions & belief systems of the world had most, but not all, of the truth, & that the world needed a catalyst (armageddon or death, which would mean the revelations of a lot of hidden things) to bring everyone together & for the people as a whole to put all the pieces of truth together.

BTW, that thought was from a few years ago; my beliefs have changed somewhat since then. hope i haven't stepped on any hairy toes.

Shan -
i really hope the situation with your brother turns out OK.

aryne *

"yes, i was referring to getting pregnant without penetration"

Indeed.

"Johnny (i think)"

I don't think that had anything to do with me, really. Ah, well. It's an interesting idea.

"all the religions & belief systems of the world had most, but not all, of the truth"

Which leads to an interesting question... If one were to assume that there is a capital-T Truth, would one person be able to understand all of it?

For that matter, can one really understand God, or merely take Him at His word?

And now, for a quick tangent.

I don't doubt that I've got a lot of things wrong about right, wrong, life, and the Truth - I've probably picked the wrong side on quite a few "grey areas", and I will confess that I haven't studied it as much as I should.

But I feel that I've found out just enough so that I can struggle against the evil that seeks to destroy me... and perhaps one day I will win.

I guess that my point with it was that the names really aren't that important.

Does it matter whether I say Yahweh, Allah, Lord, or God?

Two people can talk about "God", but be talking about entirely different concepts.
And two people can speak, in two different languages, using two different words, to praise the same Creator.

If one were to assume that there is a capital-T Truth, would one person be able to understand all of it?

assuming there is one capital-T truth (which i'm not sure there is, but am not sure there isn't either) i think that eventually we'll be able to understand it, just not in this (or any other) life.

For that matter, can one really understand God, or merely take Him at His word?

all i know is that i DON'T understand the gods.

I guess that my point with it was that the names really aren't that important. Does it matter whether I say Yahweh, Allah, Lord, or God? Two people can talk about "God", but be talking about entirely different concepts. And two people can speak, in two different languages, using two different words, to praise the same Creator.

half of this was the point i was trying to make with the "labels" comment - that if one person calls god "God" & another calls god "Aslan" but they're praying to the same god, then the names mean essentially nothing because the intentions & the gods are one & the same.

aryne *

In less than two hours from this post, watch the O'Reilly Factor on Fox News Channel tonight. The segment I want you to see will air at about 10:40ish Central Daylight Time.

Bill O'Reilly is interviewing William Peter Platty, author of THE EXORCIST.

Interesting, highly recommended discussion about THE REAL DARK SIDE.