Religon/Christinanity

Ok, listen to me carefully everybody. I did start the thread but this and this post will be my only taking in that debate. I know there will be lots of posts in that thread and I don't want, nor do I have the time, to read all those long messages you'll post.

So here's my opinion, sorry for those I may offense or sadden. (Gil and Gwaihir mostly)

I am not an Atheist. I believe in a/the mighty creator (I won't call it God for I don't believe in the God christianity depicts).

What I believe in:

- reincarnations and past life. Mostly like buddhists but without the karma. I believe we have lots of things to do and feel and that we come back to experience new things in each life. Once we experimented everything there is to be, we can get out of the circle and become god-like entities.

- The moral values christianity teaches us. I believe everyone should live by those life principles.

What I don't believe in:

- Jesus. I believe he existed. I just don't believe is any kind of "savior" I believe he was a good man, a very good man and perhaps the best personn to have lived on earth. I believe he already had lots of lives behind him and that he was greatly evoluated. But that's all.

- Maria. Don't get me on this. Virgin!? Let me laugh. Did you know what they did back there with unmarried women bearing children? They either killed them or exiled them. She really didn't want that and since she was smarter than average, she invented beautiful stories about dream of god and angels. She had to be a good liar too. That's all.

- What's left I mostly don't believe it.

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Ok, this being said, one thing saddens me. I don't believe. I think it would be so much better for me to believe, but I just don't. Look at all the things people did back then with faith!! Cathedral, crusades, etc. I would like to have that kind of faith, but I just don't.

I did start the thread but this and this post will be my only taking in that debate.



Shan, this is what I call a "hit and run" post, and I do not like them one bit. If this thread turns into a flame fest I will hold you personally responsible. When I posted in the "Women" thread, it was in direct answer to Gil's post, not a request for someone else to start the topic. But since what is done is done, I expect everyone to handle this topic sensitively. I do not want this to be the beginning of the end of "all topics are currently open for discussion on this board." It may seem like I am contricting myself by saying this....like I do not want it to be discussed.....but I am not sure I like where I forsee this topic going. Hopefully I am wrong, and it will be an enlightening discussion for ALL sides.

Amen!

No, don't run away Shan! The points you raise are sensible and worthy of discussion!

I won't bite! I am not offended at all by this. My anger rises when I feel personally flamed. How can I get angry at you for what you think? My personal opinion of you from your posts is that you are a thoughtful, considerate, and gallant young man!


Reincarnation:
I have a lot of trouble with this one. The comedian George Carlin had a good take on this, and I paraphrase:

"There are a lot of people around today! There weren't that many long ago. If everybody is a reincarnation of someone from the past, then those souls are being spread mighty thin! Maybe someone is counterfeiting them..."

Beyond this, is the paranormal consideration of other beings. Ageless spirits of destruction who have seen it all unfold, and who might desire to fill your unconscious mind with the visions and thoughts of souls long dead and lead you far astray...


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C.S. Lewis, the great Christian writer, led back from unfaith by J.R.R. Tolkien among others, gave us the following trilemma, which I give you far less eloquently and clearly than he:

Jesus Christ had to be either a madman, a liar, or the Son of God. He could not have simply been a great teacher and a good man.

A great teacher and good man cannot be insane and cannot be a liar of such tremendous power and scope. That leaves us to consider his claims to be the Messiah.

In the end, the only way to know if this claim is true, is to ask God! Then, you will eventually find a miraculous internal assurance of the Truth behind all the stories and you will know. Then you will have a decision to make, to deny Christ, or to surrender all and follow Him to Glory.


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Having experienced that miracle, and having made that choice, is the critical issue of my faith. Beyond that, the rest is not something Christians ought to fight over, and to our everlasting shame, our battles are as evil and as sad as the Kinstrife of Gondor or the Kinslaying of the Elves.


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I do not quibble over blessed Mary or the processes of Creation, or insist that others believe on these collateral matters as I do. It is not necessary to Salvation, and I am content to let these matters rest.


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The faith you wish you had is not something we are born with, it is something we are reborn with. It is the natural yearning for God that we all feel, until we have denied it so often that we grow callous and hardened against it.

I've been thinking of doing a JOAN OF ARC (Jeanne d'Arc) website, and I may need to go ahead with it.

Her life is a near perfect example of how True Faith has had to struggle against institutional religion.

And do not forget, that it was religion that killed Christ, too.

I cannot blame anyone for wanting the Faith, but abhoring the religion!

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EDIT: Ok, the Joan of Arc link is up on by BARE BONES WEBSITE! Come see the Church at its worst, and Christian Faith at its best!

Shan, there's a thin line between debating and flamming. Insulting Mary, that's flamming. You can say you don't understand her, don't accept her, but the way you said it, that hurts, especially for someone who holds her in such awe and reverance. And youre hit and run atittude is not ok.

This is going to be a painfulll thread...

Check back later.

I do not think it need be painful. I am, myself, learning more about the virtue of being slow to take offense.

But we are opening threads into both RELIGION & POLITICS, and the Ancient Rules are against bringing up such matters in polite company!

okay, this is what i think this may become a good thread but i enforce you to retire what you have said about Mary: liar is not a good word .

also, Mary WAS married when she became pregnant. although she didn't live with Josef yet, she may have had relations with him (sorry, i don't know the english word for that situation in the hebrew wedding tradition), only we believe she never had those relations (there are theologic arguments to base this point on scriptures and tradition, but i'm not going to go in that). i don't pretend that you believe she was a virgin, i just will be content if you understand that we christians has some reasons to support our faith.

I too have learned to be slow to take offence, like Gilthalion I too have experianced the miracle and made the choice to live my all for my Lord. Whether or not Mary had wed Joseph or not I consider one of those pesky little things that, like Gil said, are not neccessary for salvation.
Shan, have you every tried praying for the Faith you wish you had? I know from first hand experiance that things happen when people pray. I wear a braclet that says P.U.S.H. which means Pray Until Something Happens.

As to the identity of Jesus, here is one of my favourite quotes by CS Lewis.

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said wouldn’t be a great moral teacher. He’d be either a lunatic—on a level with a man who says he’s a poached egg—or else he’d be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse."

If one takes time to study the life of Christ, I believe you would see that there more to him than just a man.

The important thing here is how you word things, saying you don't understand Mary or believe she is what others say she is will be tolerated (though I personally am not accepting of that, but that's another matter.) Calling her a liar, that's NOT ok.

Mary became of child before Joseph took her to wife, they were simply betrothed. We believe then never had relations.

To be honest, I've met several atheists and unbelievers who feel the same way you do, Duntak. I suspect many of the self-proclaimed "scientific" minds who believe there is no God nor any reason to have one even feel the same way you do, although they'd never admit it openly. It's one of the many fallacies of a fallen race, that some of us constantly seek out anything BUT a devine and omnipotent central authority to love, believe, and worship in. In order to gain full happiness in life, one of the critical aspects is to have a relationship with the Lord. This is an inescapable fact of our existence. Those who have never known this happiness will naturally deny it, since, just as I said, they've never known the feeling, and can't even imagine it.

I think in the end, when all is said and done, with all the books have been closed, when all the televisions have been turned off, when all the light have been flicked off, and when the door has been closed, we ALL realize, sometimes unknowingly, that there is a God out there, who crafted and created each of us both physically and spiritually.

You're opinion did not upset me in the least. I share the same opinion of Gil, in that I only take offence when someone directly attacks me in an inappropriate manner. I regard your opinion as something valuable, even if I might disagree with it. I consider it great that you even have an opinion, which is something some people don't, nor do they care to. It's unfortunate that it's this way, but these folks, just like all of us, are certainly not beyond the grace and love of the Lord.

Anduin, I'm all for a civilized debate here, I never said I wasn't, nor to I believe we can't have one, if certain parties who hold strong convictions (myself included) keep their feelings in check. Just so you know, I always try to do just that.

1st: The only reason why I wanted to do a "hit and run" as you called it, is that I don't have the time to came here 4 times a day to read 200 lines of posts each time. You have to understand I'm at the university, meaning lots of work. Keep your posts SHORTS and just posts what's necessary and I'll continue to read them. Honestly, I didn't take part in the women thread because of big, long posts, for I had a lot to say about women but don't have the time to read all those huge posts.

2nd: I will, as everybody try not to take offense for some minor thing, I understand that you didn't know so I hold no bad feeling about you Gwaihir but don't call me Duntak again. I have a strong issue with that as I consider it to be very disrespectful. I know I usually overreact about this so please be carefull. Thank you.

3rd: Ok... For Mother Mary, I will be rephrasing, I believe she was not a virgin and she had invented beautiful stories. That's my opinion, you don't have to share it, but I'll still stand by it.


4th: I don't know about Jesus, but my feeling is and is strong that he was a messenger, one of many, but not the messiah. Something in my heart tells me to believe this.

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And by the way, when everything goes wrong, or at the opposite, when everything goes right, I instinctively take time to pray. Not God, but the creator. And yes, for me there is a difference.
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That's about all for now.

Gwaihir, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular when I made my post. It was just a reminder to those who were planning on participating.

Shan, I don't think it is possible for some people of this board to make short posts.....hehe, just an observation.

Then I don't think it would be possible for me to participate in that thread.

which Anduin refers to. Quite accurately, in fact.

I tend to be quite verbose, because frankly, I have a lot to say. And when I debate, I'd prefer to spend a page constructing a logical counterargument against points than simply saying "that's not true" and leaving it.

However, I've been down this road before. I've become convinced that there's really very little point in discussing religion on an online bulletin board. Please do not ask me why I feel this way... it's a long, somewhat painful story, and one that I would prefer not to rehash.

Now, about some of the points you've raised, Shanamir... I'll try to keep these short.

Reincarnation: I don't care. Three simple words. That's the end of my involvement in that argument.

On the subject of Mary, I have a few things to say.
"Did you know what they did back there with unmarried women bearing children? They either killed them or exiled them."

Not under the Roman government, they didn't. Adultery may have been a capital crime under the Hebrew government in some cases, but the Hebrew government was not in control. This was evidenced in Jesus's "trial", in which the Sanhedrin charged him of blasphemy - "Are you then the son of God?" "You are right in saying I am." "Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips." (Dialogue excerpts from Luke 22:70-71 NIV), but the crime for which he was executed was "subverting our nation" - they said "He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar" (Excerpts, Luke 23:2 NIV). However, when Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?", and Jesus responded, "Yes, it is as you say.", Pilate didn't care. He said that he found "no basis for a charge against this man" (Excerpts from Luke 23:3-4 NIV).

Was blasphemy a capital crime for the Hebrews? Yes. But they couldn't charge people under Roman law with it.
And, as far as I know, adultery wasn't a crime under the Roman government at that point, either... just think about some of the stuff that the Roman upper class was doing at that point. Or don't.

Now, would it have meant shame for Mary to be pregnant and unmarried - perhaps even being disowned? Yeah, but not death or exile. Sorry, bud.

Oh, and one final note... Joseph "was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace" (Excerpt of Matthew 1:19 NIV), and according to his testimony, "an angel of the Lord appeared to him" (Excerpt of Matthew 1:20 NIV) too - so it wasn't just Mary's story.

Sorry for the length on that one - I had a lot to cover.

Now, as far as your theory on Jesus goes... I'm afraid that it seems to have some caveats to it.

Perhaps the most important is that your story implies that he was quite insane.

He was very capable at many points of "patching things up" with the Sanhedrin, or he could have defended himself in the presence of Pilate - a sharp debate would have most certainly saved his life. But he continued on his course to the Cross - he even knew it was coming. He actually talked to his disciples about it quite frequently.

Now, your theory on him inducts the idea that he was also quite a liar. Were he reincarnated many times, his own teaching would be clever misdirection about his past - and his future.

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead - have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:30-32 NIV)

Resurrection. Reincarnation. Reconcilable?

Go ahead.

Sorry, but that's as short as I could keep it.

(Edit: Darn it, I said "close" instead of "short")

Being a white in a black place in New York ain't illegual... but your life's at risk anyway.

Being not in charge does not imply you can't do your own justice and I believe that's mostly what they did.

Adultery may have been a capital crime under the Hebrew government in some cases

REMEMBER the women "Marie Madeleine" (I don't know her name in english) that was to be "stoned" (? Lapider in french) for adultery. That was a pretty "common" (in the mean of accepted) way back then. And I do believe than when your the recipient of many big rocks, you die.

This really is a minor point, and I apologise in advance for the length of this post. (There's a story to tell!) I, too, am weary of long posts on controversial subjects. These are not matters to be resolved here.

If the woman Mary Magdelene had actually been taken in the act of adultery, those stoning her would still had been wrong. The man AND the woman caught in the act, were to be taken together OUTSIDE the city gates (not to the street) and stoned there. The man was evidently set free.

And evidently, the men who wished to stone her, lived in glass houses themselves!

Jesus' solution to the problem was unique and should be practiced more today.

I suggested this in public before a host of people gathered on the lawns and balconies at the University. They were there to hear a suspender-wearing lunatic rave about sin.

I thought he was giving Christians a bad name and went forward to confront him and I read aloud the story of the woman taken in adultery, and of Jesus mercy and compassion for we who sin.

The crowd of university students actually cheered like it was a football game!

It made no impression. He lost himself and the crowd in a dissertation on Hebrew capital punishment. But afterwards, other Christians began speaking against him and the onlookers knew that we were not all judgemental hypocrites.

We who study the Word, must bear in mind that the World does not, at least not as we do. We look for Truth, they look for error.

There is nothing like looking for something if you want to find it!

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BE SURE TO CHECK OUT MY NEW JOAN OF ARC PAGE ON MY BAREBONES WEBSITE!

Shan, I'll be sure to not direct comments in your direction using that name again. Although I'm a little surprised that you take offence by that, since it is part of your screen name. Regardless, I apologize.

Since the story of Mary is catalogued in scripture (and since I believe those scriptures to be the word of God) Mary certainly was a virgin at the birth of Jesus Christ. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

David

"Being not in charge does not imply you can't do your own justice and I believe that's mostly what they did."

Not under the Romans... that would have been a royal excuse for some Centurions to have some target practice. Especially if Mary had some connections with a Roman citizen... Like I said, they need to find some sort of Roman charge to "have their way". Yes, they _might_ have gotten away with it, in a Roman province, against a Hebrew woman.

But not with Joseph as a husband. He splits with her privately, no one's the wiser... what happens to the baby is up for speculation - I won't go there. Any Hebrew historians care to talk about what would happen?

If you believe there is no God, then you can't afford to be wrong.

All I can really say to convince people that Jesus is the savior, Mary was a virgin, and God is the creator of everything is:

If you do not believe in this you must be 100% correct, because if you are wrong you got big consequences coming your way.

If you do believe, you cannot go wrong, if it is not true, then it doesn't matter, but since it is all true you will be going to heaven.

Just so everyone is clear this is not what I base my relationship with Jesus on, it is a lot more than that, that is just one good point I always keep in mind.

Even if Christianity was a fabrication (a possibility far too unlikely to be real) living a Christian life would benefit you regardless. God's laws and principles equal a happy and healthy life, even if you take out the relationship with the Lord.

David