What is death for Ainur?

[CrazySquirrel]

I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

sauron was an ainu, they cannot die (the witchking was not, and saruman once was, but he was changed like the other wizards that were sent to middle-earth to be more human... and even then, we can not be sure that his spirit did not continue on)

First of all: What is "to die?"

As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long.

Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally.

But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate:

From Osanwë Kenta: "Here Penolod adds a long note on the use of /hröar/ by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of 'incarnation', especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). 'It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less to the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. ...Pengolod also cites the opinion that if a 'spirit' (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. ... Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. ... So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.' (Pengolod here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth.

So in LOTR we seemingly have only incarnate Maiar. Sauron became a fully incarnate maia by his own evil deeds (see above). The same may apply to the Barlog.The Istari were clad in real bodies of Men, when sent on their mission to the Middle Earth (and it looks like they were incarnated by the power of the Valar, not their own).

What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years).
The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again.
The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring.

Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar:

1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger.

2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what??

3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as
a. he was not immediately recognizable
b. he had no traces of burns and bruises.
c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain!

4. Saruman - most interesting case.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Here no body is left to rot. I think we have two similar cases with the non-Ainur.

1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties?

2. Feanor.

Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.

A death of an Ainu.
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.


Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all?