Why didn't Sauron use the Numenorean army?

[CAB]

Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?

[Gordis]

Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.

IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave.
The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad.
As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one.

Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Interesting topic, CAB. I don't think it has ever been discussed before.

IMO, Ar-Pharazon, whatever strong Sauron's influence might have been, never became his slave.
The King did what HE wanted to do - and he wanted immortality and in that he was of like mind with most of the populatiion. There was nothing for him to gain, if he had attacked Gil-Galad.
As for the Faithful, they were keeping their heads low, both in Nimenor and in ME. Never was there an open rebellion, hence there was really no need for military action against the Faithful. Gradually they would have been exterminated one by one.

Now, by the time of the Downfall, Ar-Pharazon was already 200 years old. His predecessor, Tar-Palantir the Faithful, lived only to 220 years, while his own father, Gimilkhâd, died at 200! The King had NO time to waste hunting elves n ME. He had to act before the "Gift" of Eru reached him.

Good answer as always Gordis. Let me ask you this though. Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor? He would then have more time to defeat his enemies in Middle Earth before the new King grew old. I think you are right that Pharazon wasn’t completely under Sauron’s control and this might have been the case with the new King also, but surely Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.

[Landroval]

Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.

I believe so too, in the Kings of Numenor, RotK, it is stated:

Ar-Pharazon the Golden was the proudest and most powerful of all the Kings, and no less than the kingship of the world was his desire.

Perhaps Sauron didn't want Ar-Pharazon to confron his own faithful subjects; or maybe he just wanted the numenoreans to die, since he hated them so much:

Originally Posted by Akallabeth, Silmarillion

For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud king

[Earniel]

I think the main reason is that Sauron wanted Númenor utterly destroyed. He didn't at the moment care much about the Elves and other people in Middle-earth. He could deal with them later. He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.

I think he saw the corruption of the Númenoreans he wrought, the fact that he was able to send Ar-Pharazon to Valinor to defy the Valar from whom the Númenoreans had even received their own land, as a enormous victory. I doubt he had forseen the magnitude and swiftness of Eru's punishment or he wouldn't have stayed in Númenor. Unless Ar-Pharazon didn't completely trust him after all and wanted to make sure Sauron was still where he left the maia when he returned from his campaign against Valinor.

But it still stands that Sauron managed to destroy a very prosperous and advanced civilisation and reduced a mighty people to exiles and cast-aways, much diminished in power, knowledge and technology. While Gondor and Arnor still were great kingdoms, they were but a small remnant of what once was, and they would never again equal the likes of Númenor. With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.

[Landroval]

With the destruction of Númenor Sauron successfully made sure the might of Númenor could never stand again in the way of his dominion.

I think this is a matter of debate; as long as Numenor stood (with Sauron there), the faithfull could not openly fight Sauron and his plans. Once Numenor perished, the numenoreans in Middle-Earth twice were crucial in defeating Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

Good answer as always Gordis. Let me ask you this though. Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor?

I don't think Sauron wanted to take the chance of his succesor being similar to Tar-Palantir. I think I am right to say that at this point Ar-Pharazon had not had any children, so if he ied the next ruler who have been Miriel, who was one of the faithful. I think that if this did happen then the people of Numenor could be persuaded to see things from Miriel's and the rest of the Faithful's side. After all it was the ruler who turned Numenor against the Lord's of Andunie in the first place, not Sauron.

[Gordis]

I believe people tend to overestimate Sauron's influence on Ar-Pharazon. The only things Sauron achieved was making the Numenoreans worship Melkor and attack Valinor - both things for one goal - gaining immortality. That was the only thing they really wanted, not some war with the ME Elves. Sauron couldn't really use the King and his army as he wished: that's why he destroyed them.

Originally Posted by CAB

Why couldn’t Sauron wait a few years for Pharazon to die and then work on his successor? He would then have more time to defeat his enemies in Middle Earth before the new King grew old. I think you are right that Pharazon wasn’t completely under Sauron’s control and this might have been the case with the new King also, but surely Sauron could come up with a way to convince him that attacking the Elves in Middle Earth was to his advantage. They were already attacking Men far and wide.

I believe Ar-Pharazon would have never agreed to wait and die. He was King, it was he who took decisions. If Sauron tried to turn his attentions elsewhere, he wouldn't have agreed. Death was major issue in Numenor by this time: the life span of the Kings was HALVED!
And I think Telcontar_Dunedain is right. The next ruler would be MIRIEL - not as a widow of Ar-Pharazon, but as a daughter of Tar-Palantir. And after her the Sceptre would have passed to the next in line - this person should have been appointed heir long ago and probably left behind when the Fleet sailed - just in case. There was later the custom in Gondor to leave a Heir to the crown behind (Like Ondoher and Faramir his son-see UT)

Originally Posted by Earniel

He didn't want to control Númenor and its people, he wanted to see them crippled, humbled and cast down. I guess his pride was majorly stung when Ar-Pharazon outdid him in power.

Yes, I agree with that. Sauron was a vengeful guy. But what did he really plan? Yes, he was expecting Pharazon and his army to perish in their assault on Valinor. He wasn't expecting the drowning of the whole island. What would have happened if the fleet never returned? Normally the remaining population of Numenor would have been even more in Sauron's power and even more turned against the Valar and the Elves than they were previously. The new Queen, Tar-Miriel, had little left to live anyway and who would be the next King, who knows? The Witch-King, perhaps. .Next generation would have served Sauron, IMHO, and the might of the Island would have been slowly rebuilt. Of course there were the Faithful, but having the Power in his hands, Sauron would have dealt with them - or so he thought.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, he was expecting Pharazon and his army to perish in their assault on Valinor. He wasn't expecting the drowning of the whole island. What would have happened if the fleet never returned? Normally the remaining population of Numenor would have been even more in Sauron's power and even more turned against the Valar and the Elves than they were previously.

Interesting observation. If Ar-Pharazon and his fleet never came back, it would have left a power-vacuum in Númenor. One, I'm thinking MÃ*riel would have had difficulty to fill succesfully. Turning the population of Númenor back from the Morgoth-worship and back on friendly basis with the West and Elves would have been a very hard task indeed, considering there was but a small group of Faithfull left on the whole continent. Sauron may very well have had a much better shot at the control then.

[Ellf]

Originally Posted by CAB

Towards the end of the Second Age, the Numenoreans had become a very formidable military force. When Ar Pharazon confronted Sauron, Sauron’s own servants deserted him and he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. After a few years Sauron gained control of Pharazon and through him the Numenorean military. My question is: Why didn’t Sauron use this army against his enemies in Middle Earth, primarily the Elves and Faithful Numenoreans? The Numenoreans in Ar Pharazon’s time surely could have destroyed or enslaved them. Instead, Sauron willingly destroyed his new forces by sending them against the Valar. He knew quite well that this would be their end. Why would he do this?

Please read Post #41

[Alcuin]

Tolkien states Sauron’s motives explicitly in Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed�, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion�:

…Sauron‘s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, [but] this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron … would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

Note that in Letter 156, he writes,

“The Valar ... were not allowed to destroy [Men], or coerce them with any ‘divine’ display of the powers they held over the physical world.�

I believe part of Sauron’s plan was to draw the Valar and Maiar themselves into rebellion against Eru by inducing them to kill the Númenóreans when they attacked Valinor.

-|-

Originally Posted by Ellf

Don't forget Numenoreans were a blood mixture of elves and men.

In Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were “a blood mixture of elves and men.� The Númenóreans were Dúnedain: “West Edain,� the descendents of the those survivors of the Three Houses of Men allied to the Eldar in their wars against Morgoth in Beleriand who traveled to the island of Elenna, which they called Anadûnê or “Westernesse.�

It was not “mere hatred� that drove Sauron. In Morgoth’s Ring, Tolkien states that Morgoth was a “nihilist�: that is, he wanted the destruction of all Arda:

…when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, by other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence… His sole ultimate object was their destruction. …if he had been victorious, he would have ultimately destroyed his own ‘creatures’ … when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.

Of Sauron, Tolkien wrote,

Sauron never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension. Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".

[Alcuin]

Was not Sauron also humiliated by Luthien and Huan?

They were no longer within proximity: he could not punish or humiliate them in any way. Upon Ar-Pharazôn, however, he could avenge himself. Sauron was nothing if not practically-minded, at least over the intermediate run. And the Númenóreans were not a “mixture of elves and men.� They were not all descendents of Lúthien and Beren: in Númenor, only the descendents of Elros were also descendents of Lúthien and Beren.

You mean to say the destruction of Arda wouldn't ultimately destroy it's inhabitants?

Sauron wasn’t trying to destroy Arda. Morgoth was trying to destroy Arda. Sauron wanted to rule Arda.

You mean to say destruction is not driven by Hatred? Please read the whole first paragraph of Post 41 again, not just one word. Try to understand the whole context.

Ok, I read it again, and I think I understand your position. Your post is not accurate. In the first paragraph, Sauron was not consumed by hatred for the Númenóreans in the sense that he wanted them all killed. He was perfectly happy with live Númenóreans so long as he ruled them, and in fact he did rule the Black Númenóreans directly or indirectly until until his own demise at the end of the War of the Ring. He wanted Ar-Pharazôn destroyed because Ar-Pharazôn had humiliated him, and if he could induce the Valar to rebel against Eru by enticing them into destroying Ar-Pharazôn’s invasion force, all the better.

Sauron was not out to destroy the world the way Morgoth was. At one point, Tolkien even described Sauron as a “reformer�: in Letter 153 of The Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote,

…at the beginning of the Second Age [Sauron] … was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all ‘reformers’ who want to hurry up with ‘reconstruction’ and ‘reorganization’ are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up.

To paraphrase, that means Sauron believed he knew better than everyone else, and so thought he ought to be in charge, with everyone else doing things his way. If you look around you in the real world, you’ll see “Saurons� in the newspapers and on television – maybe even in school – who want to “hurry up and reform everything,� and who believe that nobody else can do this but them. They don’t want to destroy whatever they want to reform: they want to remake it in their own image, and to suit their own purposes.

I came up with my response all on my own. From my own reading and comprehension.

Yes, I think I can clearly see that.

Not bad for someone who's never read Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed".

No, not bad. Not bad at all. But it’s not correct in the sense that it does not reflect Tolkien’s subcreation. I’m not attacking you or belittling you: it’s not a bad understanding at all. It’s just not a well-informed understanding.

We come to these forums to learn. Okay, and to show off a little. But if it’s a choice between learning and showing off, choose the learning every time. Showing off can get you embarrassed. (Which is better than what happens in the real world: “Hey, ya’ll! Watch this!� or “Look, Ma! No hands!�) You now know about Morgoth’s Ring. If you’re interested in Tolkien, really interested, go take a look at it. Get a copy from the library, read it, or at least those sections that appeal to you, and tell us what you think about it. You might enjoy reading the part about what motivated Morgoth and Sauron: Morgoth was functional, but ultimately he was way beyond homicidal and possibly insane: his purpose was to destroy whatever anyone and everyone else made. There really are people like this in the real world: you may not have met one yet, or realized that you’ve met one, but you will. Sauron wanted to be in charge. He was ok with Arda: he wanted to rule it: he wanted it for his own. There are people like that, too, and you probably have met and recognized them. (Most people have had their first experience with a selfish “Sauron� by age 5.)

That’s my response. You can take it or leave it; but before you fire off an angry answer, just think about it for a couple of hours.

And find yourself a copy of Morgoth’s Ring. You might like it.

[Landroval]

Alcuin made some excellent points, as usual. I would only like to point out that Myths Transformed is one of the most controversial Tolkien texts in existence. Chris himself has called it "a fearful weapon against his own creation", due to its drastic revision of the entire creation. If there was a quote in Silmarillion which would challenge the MT on the case in question, I would say it is this one, which pretty much equates the path of Sauron with the one of Melkor:

Originally Posted by Of the Maiar, Silmarillion

But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

[Ellf]

Alcuin,
I am not angry, and I hope my initial response was not interpreted that way. Maybe a little sarcastic, but in no way angry. I did discover a new thing which you mentioned twice. That not all Numenoreans were descended from Elros. Quite interestingly enough I haven't read the Silmarillion in a few years. I understand your point about Morgoth's intentions vs. Sauron's and I will not give in so easy to any thought. I know my web name is Ellf (which happen to be my initials), but I'm more of a Dwarf if you may (a little stiff necked). So I must say that I will look a little more into it, because I do believe and remember reading in the Sil. that Morgoth wanted the domination of Arda. Now, whether Tolkien wrote this and disagreed with his thoughts later (which I'm finding more and more often), I will find out. This is a thread based upon the Sil. is it not.

Now, regarding ethnic cleansing, I do believe that Sauron had hatred in his heart to murder people and sacrafice them to Morgoth. Also if Tolkien claims Morgoth was a "nihilist" wouldn't his best disciple be one also? Well any how I will look into this a little further, because I do remember reading in the Sil. that Sauron was very similar to his Master.

By the way, why didn't Morgoth destroy the Simarils? Why didn't he destroy Luthien when she was in his presence? Hmmmm?

Sorry for the sarcasim.