Samwise the incompetent spy

Bacchus · 12-11-2003, 08:59 PM

The conspiracy of Merry, Pippin, Fredegar Bolger, and Sam was formed to keep an eye on Frodo and to assist him when he ultimately left the Shire. Merry had known about Bilbo's ring for years, and had even seen the Red Book.

Sam was identified as the chief investigator and spy for the conspiracy, and the source of much of their information. However, he is said to have "regarded himself as on parole" after being caught by Gandalf and ceased sharing information.

But...

Sam was caught during the very conversation in which Gandalf identified the Ring. What information could he have given to the conspiracy?

Ilúvatar · 12-11-2003, 09:56 PM

Gandalf does come and go several times between the party and the time he tells Frodo the history of the Ring. I also always thought that it was mostly that they wanted to know what Gandalf was saying to Frodo during all those visits and just a general interest in the Ring. They mention they know the Ring makes a user invisible and that Gandalf has some interest in the Ring, but I think that is as far as Sam was able to give them.

Attalus · 12-11-2003, 11:56 PM

I have always thought that Samwise had quit supplying information to the conspiracy, but was eavesdropping on his own hook, that night. Eru knows that I would have.

cassiopeia · 12-12-2003, 01:32 AM

I thought Sam told Merry and Pippin that Frodo would be leaving the Shire, not living at Crickhollow like he pretended to everybody else. But then Merry and Pippin had guessed this because of Frodo's mutterings, so it probably wasn't important. Merry had seen Bilbo's book, but it would have only been The Hobbit and maybe parts of The Silmarillion, and he only had a quick glance. He probably didn't know the Ring was evil, so Sam might have supplied that information.

It's said in the book Sam collected a lot of information before he was caught. I think Sam was keeping an eye on Frodo, making sure he didn't take off without the other conspirators' knowledge.

Attalus · 12-12-2003, 03:01 PM

Well, everybody in Hobbiton was agog with Gandalf's visit, no doubt. Sam probably suspected that Frodo might go off with him or because of him, as Bilbo had done. That's why he gasped. His suspicions were confirmed!

Bacchus · 12-12-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
It's said in the book Sam collected a lot of information before he was caught. I think Sam was keeping an eye on Frodo, making sure he didn't take off without the other conspirators' knowledge.

That's my point. What information was there to give (besides the trivial "Frodo had sausages and bacon for second breakfast today") before he was caught?

Attalus · 12-12-2003, 05:32 PM

Well, the negative information that he hadn't been packing, I guess.

12-11-2003, 08:59 PM	#1
Bacchus Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Houston TX USA Posts: 245	Samwise the incompetent spy The conspiracy of Merry, Pippin, Fredegar Bolger, and Sam was formed to keep an eye on Frodo and to assist him when he ultimately left the Shire. Merry had known about Bilbo's ring for years, and had even seen the Red Book. Sam was identified as the chief investigator and spy for the conspiracy, and the source of much of their information. However, he is said to have "regarded himself as on parole" after being caught by Gandalf and ceased sharing information. But... Sam was caught during the very conversation in which Gandalf identified the Ring. What information could he have given to the conspiracy? __________________ Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.

12-11-2003, 11:56 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I have always thought that Samwise had quit supplying information to the conspiracy, but was eavesdropping on his own hook, that night. Eru knows that I would have. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-12-2003, 01:32 AM	#4
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I thought Sam told Merry and Pippin that Frodo would be leaving the Shire, not living at Crickhollow like he pretended to everybody else. But then Merry and Pippin had guessed this because of Frodo's mutterings, so it probably wasn't important. Merry had seen Bilbo's book, but it would have only been The Hobbit and maybe parts of The Silmarillion, and he only had a quick glance. He probably didn't know the Ring was evil, so Sam might have supplied that information. It's said in the book Sam collected a lot of information before he was caught. I think Sam was keeping an eye on Frodo, making sure he didn't take off without the other conspirators' knowledge. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

12-12-2003, 03:01 PM	#5
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Well, everybody in Hobbiton was agog with Gandalf's visit, no doubt. Sam probably suspected that Frodo might go off with him or because of him, as Bilbo had done. That's why he gasped. His suspicions were confirmed! __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-12-2003, 05:32 PM	#7
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Well, the negative information that he hadn't been packing, I guess. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

12-11-2003, 09:56 PM	#2
Ilúvatar Hobbit Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 37	Gandalf does come and go several times between the party and the time he tells Frodo the history of the Ring. I also always thought that it was mostly that they wanted to know what Gandalf was saying to Frodo during all those visits and just a general interest in the Ring. They mention they know the Ring makes a user invisible and that Gandalf has some interest in the Ring, but I think that is as far as Sam was able to give them.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
samwise the down trodden help!	The Screaming Nazgul	Lord of the Rings Books	28	01-23-2006 06:35 PM
LotR Book IV, ch.9&10: Shelob's Lair and The Choices of Master Samwise	azalea	LOTR Discussion Project	20	11-06-2005 06:56 PM
Monty Python Meets LOTR	Eruve	Lord of the Rings Books	73	02-16-2005 08:43 PM
The Choices of Master Samwise	sun-star	Lord of the Rings Books	29	01-08-2003 01:49 AM