Was the Ring the Ruin of Sauron?

[Maedhros]

When you read LOTR, you notice that when the one Ring was destroyed, Sauron too was utterly defeated, so it would be logical to assume that it was so but, what if we look at it in another way.
Remember that Sauron had been disembodied in Númenorë, and he had been defeated in the war of the Last Alliance. Had he not made his ring, would he have been able to come back from that?
Take for example the Lord of the Balrogs, Gothmog. I think that his power level comparing to Sauron must be very similar. When Gothmog was killed by the lord of the Fountains, he was unable to reincarnate himself. Now, if he couldn't do it, why would Sauron be able to?
My guess is that without the Ring, Sauron would not have gotten that far in ME.

[Elvellyn]

Sauron concentrated all of his power into this one Ring. This was not very smart IMO.
If he hadnt made the ring in the first place, he wouldnt have had enough power to do much of anything

[samwise of the shire]

The way I look at it is this: Sauron was his own undoing. So was the Balrog. Saruman destroyed himself as well. I think that whenever a Maia wanted to appear in physical form on ME they could choose how big and powerful that physical (and destructable) form.
In creating their physical form they would use the power they were created with, and so some of the power that went into their physical body was taken out of the essence they were created as, so if their physical form was destroyed, the SPIRIT that lived within the body would be of no harm to anyone and would basically kick itself in the tail for being so stupid.
Take Sauron for example. He was more powerful than all the 5 istari wizards combined, but because he put all or most of his power into the making of Baradur and the Ring he hardly had any for himself, so when the Ring was destroyed his spirit, his entity was destroyed as well. Kind of sad really, one of the greatest Maia reduced to less than a quivering mass of nerves just because of pride, stupidity, and a hobbit. *shakes head*
Cheers,
Sam

[Maedhros]

Sauron concentrated all of his power into this one Ring. This was not very smart IMO.
If he hadnt made the ring in the first place, he wouldnt have had enough power to do much of anything

I completely disagree with this statement. If Sauron had use part of his power in the making of the One Ring, he would have kept a greater part of his inherent power, he had plenty of power to do a great many things.

Take Sauron for example. He was more powerful than all the 5 istari wizards combined, but because he put all or most of his power into the making of Baradur and the Ring he hardly had any for himself, so when the Ring was destroyed his spirit, his entity was destroyed as well. Kind of sad really, one of the greatest Maia reduced to less than a quivering mass of nerves just because of pride, stupidity,

Again, I completely disagree with this statement. There is no textual evidence to suggest that Sauron was more powerful than the other Istari combined. Sauron seemed more powerful because he had no restrictions regarding his power as did the Istari. When the Ring was destroyed, his spirit was not destroy, it just lost a great amount of his power that left him unable to reincarnate himself.
Have you ever wondered if Sauron would have survived his two previous dis-incarnations if he hadn't had an anchor like the Ring?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Sauron was powerful before the creation of the Ring, but would he have survived these other two episodes if he had not made the Ring? This is a re-direction of his power. Did any Elf, Man, or group togeter stand a chance of victory against him without the existance of the Ring? He was greater than they, but probably not invincable. When he made the Ring, it gave him something to draw on. Reminds me of a bank account in a way. Whats the best way to conserve money. You'll spend more in a checking account so when you start spending frivolously the funds dwindle. What's a good solution? Tranfer the money into a savings account, then you have reserves to draw on. So perhaps what this comes down to, is that by the Ring holding most of his power, bought him more time than it would have otherwise, but, with or without the Ring, Sauron"s demise was inevitable.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There is no textual evidence to suggest that Sauron was more powerful than the other Istari combined. Sauron seemed more powerful because he had no restrictions regarding his power as did the Istari. When the Ring was destroyed, his spirit was not destroy, it just lost a great amount of his power that left him unable to reincarnate himself.

I disagree with that. Now, I don't mean that he would be able to take on all five Istari together; that I think is rather unlikely. But stating that the reason he seemed more powerful was because of restrictions; that I would disagree with. In the third volume, Gandalf said, 'I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White; but Black is greater still'. (or something like that )

[Sister Golden Hair]

'I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White; but Black is greater still'. (or something like that

All that says, is that Sauron was greater than Gandalf, not all of the Istari together. The Istari were probably as powerful as Sauron in their true sense, but they were restricted by the Valar in useing their power in Middle-earth. Sauron had no such restrction because he was evil and totally defiant of the Valar.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, that's what I meant. I read Maedhros' post as saying that the only reason he seemed stronger than the Istari in general, not as a whole, was because of restrictions. Of course, I was probably wrong.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
All that says, is that Sauron was greater than Gandalf, not all of the Istari together. The Istari were probably as powerful as Sauron in their true sense, but they were restricted by the Valar in useing their power in Middle-earth. Sauron had no such restrction because he was evil and totally defiant of the Valar.

Now we are sounding shockingly like Star Wars here. This idea is most likely rooted in religious belief. That good requires restraint. Where as doing evil requires simply power and the willingness to use it to create chaos. You could also say it follows the natural order of the universe really. That entropy is the natural path of all matter. It takes energy to concentrate things in an organized way because you are fighting against the natural tendency of the universe to become uniform which we percieve as chaos. Where as doing evil takes little more then letting things fall apart or perhaps encouraging them to. So evil is always stronger then good all things being equal. Ok the metaphysics lecture is over.

[Artanis]

Good analogy of bank accounts SGH.

I tend to think of the One Ring as one of Sauron's incarnations. It was a physical shape which received much of his power and will. When his fair shape was destroyed at the Downfall of Númenor, he still got his other incarnation to fall back on (Ignoring for the time the problem of why his Ring wasn't destroyed at the Downfall as well, or at least drowned. Didn't he wear it? Didn't he bring it to Númenor?). But now his power was mostly spent into his Ring, he was unable to take a fair form. When the Ring was destroyed, most of his power was also gone, and could not be regained.

About restrictions: The Istari were not allowed to force or scare the people of Middle-Earth into doing (or not doing) things, they were limited to giving councel, and let people decide for themselves. Sauron had no such limits. On the contrary, his aim was to bend the will of all people in Middle-Earth under his own. (Which takes a lot of energy, but doesn't contradict the law of entropy )

[markedel]

It's not surprising really. Sauron followed Morgoth in all things. Like Morgoth he wanted to increase his inherant power by investing it beyond himself (though this paradoxically weakens him without the thing he invested). Like Morgoth he couldn't read his enemies, and so he was ruined. Its telling about evil-even the most intelligent evildoers truly know their enemies, even if they have some tactical ability.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Artanis
About restrictions: The Istari were not allowed to force or scare the people of Middle-Earth into doing (or not doing) things, they were limited to giving councel, and let people decide for themselves.

Now was this something they were just told or was their power actually limited or effected in a way such that they couldnt do this? In other words was this free will and discretion at work or were their wings clipped before they got dropped on earth? Because Saruman obviously stopped playing by the rules after a while.

[Artanis]

I think enabling the exercise of free will is an essential moral code in Tolkien's world. To persuade someone by fear or force is an evil thing. The Istari knew this, as did all the Ainur. Free will was for the Istari also, there was nothing to hinder them in forsaking their task, like Radagast and the blue Wizards did, or to turn to evil like Saruman did. The abilities of the Istari was somewhat limited by the physical shape that they had as old Men, but their power was still dreadful when revealed.

[markedel]

Well they were emissaries of the valar-who knew that active intervention had not worked that well.

[Maedhros]

Originally posted by Artanis
[(Ignoring for the time the problem of why his Ring wasn't destroyed at the Downfall as well, or at least drowned. Didn't he wear it? Didn't he bring it to Númenor?).

From the Letters of JRRT: # 211

Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

There it is.

[Artanis]

Thanks!

Letter #211 also says this:

The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them.

Although making the One Ring was an investment, it was also perilous, since the power of the Ring would to some extent get out of Sauron's control.

[#1GaMGeeGuRL]

Originally posted by Maedhros
When you read LOTR, you notice that when the one Ring was destroyed, Sauron too was utterly defeated, so it would be logical to assume that it was so but, what if we look at it in another way.
Remember that Sauron had been disembodied in Númenorë, and he had been defeated in the war of the Last Alliance. Had he not made his ring, would he have been able to come back from that?
Take for example the Lord of the Balrogs, Gothmog. I think that his power level comparing to Sauron must be very similar. When Gothmog was killed by the lord of the Fountains, he was unable to reincarnate himself. Now, if he couldn't do it, why would Sauron be able to?
My guess is that without the Ring, Sauron would not have gotten that far in ME.

My thoughts exactly. He just had the ring in case any of his schemes when awry and it would allow him to survive.

[durin's bane]

Well, I say it's half and half. He needed the Ring to reach his goal of enslaving all of Middle-earth, however, he left out the part where because of how much of himself he put into the Ring, he would be destroyed along with his Ring. Kind of like Gollum, a bit.

[Maedhros]

Well, I say it's half and half. He needed the Ring to reach his goal of enslaving all of Middle-earth, however, he left out the part where because of how much of himself he put into the Ring, he would be destroyed along with his Ring.

But remember, would Sauron had lasted that long without it?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Maedhros
But remember, would Sauron had lasted that long without it?

Absolutely not. But this doesnt mean his primary purpose in creating the ring was life insurance if you will. The primary purpose was world domination by amplified influence through the power of the ring. The fact that he was saved once when Numenor was sunk proves nothing other than that hes fortunate. He wasnt expecting that much of a reaction at all. He was sitting on his little thrown laughing remember and the next thing he knew the whole flippin island was underwater. He really hadnt anticipated anything like that happening.