Gothmog

Last Child of Ungoliant · 11-04-2004, 08:26 AM

is there any decisive statement that states what gothmog was?
all he is referred to as in lotr is the lieutenant of minas morgul.
i have difficulty seeing him as an orc, but also i have difficulty
seeing him as a lesser nazgul. perhaps more along the same
lines as the mouth of sauron, a black numenorean?

thoughts...ideas...?

Fenir_LacDanan · 11-04-2004, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

is there any decisive statement that states what gothmog was?
all he is referred to as in lotr is the lieutenant of minas morgul.
i have difficulty seeing him as an orc, but also i have difficulty
seeing him as a lesser nazgul. perhaps more along the same
lines as the mouth of sauron, a black numenorean?

thoughts...ideas...?

Well I don't think that any mere orc would be left in charge of such a great fortress as Minas Morgul. And the whole lesser nazgul thing doesn't really fly, I recon. Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?

I agree that it's probably a black Numenorean.

Attalus · 11-06-2004, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Well I don't think that any mere orc would be left in charge of such a great fortress as Minas Morgul. And the whole lesser nazgul thing doesn't really fly, I recon. Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?

I agree that it's probably a black Numenorean.

I agree that Gothmog (II

) was a Black Numenorean. I don't think any Orc was put in charge of anything but other Orcs, bar Azog.

Haradrim · 11-21-2004, 11:43 PM

Welll orcs definatley had to have leaders. No army could run without some kind of rank system. That would eb silly!

I htink he wa sjust a really powerful orc who had made hsi way to the top.

Pytt · 11-22-2004, 09:59 AM

yes, an army need some sort of rank system, and if I were to decide who should rule on of the greatest citys in my kingdom, I donbt' think an orc would be the one. rather a black numenorean. maybe an orc in charge in a battle on the battlefield, but not to rule a city of that sice.

Manveru · 12-06-2004, 06:09 PM

i agree, he was probably a black numenorean, i dont really think that sauron trusted his orcs that much to put one in charge of one of his greatest fortresses.

ItalianLegolas · 12-06-2004, 07:27 PM

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control

Attalus · 12-06-2004, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control

Odd, this isn't what your post reads as. [Edit] Oh, now I see. You edited it.

Findegil · 12-08-2004, 04:44 PM

How can you say that he lived to long to be anything. As fare as I know he is just once mentioned and there we were not given his age. Thus, as fare as we know he could have been a jungster of let say 30 years for all we know when he was seen on the Pelenor.

Respectfully
Findegil

me9996 · 03-16-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that:
Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord"
So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control

I've got it! A wraith! (After all...)

Lefty Scaevola · 03-16-2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Has there been any other mention of lesser nazgul, bar the matter of Frodo?

Khamul, in cahrge of Dol Guldar in between the times of Hobbit and LoTR (currently an admin here)

Beor · 03-18-2005, 01:00 AM

Gothmog from LOTR was a used car salesman from New Jersey, which rests right where Minas Morgul used to be. Its crazy how these things work out.

Attalus · 03-19-2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Khamul, in cahrge of Dol Guldar in between the times of Hobbit and LoTR (currently an admin here)

Also called "the Terror of the East." And the Moot?

Gordis · 03-27-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that: Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord" So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control

He could be a young Black Numenorean. Somehow people tend to think that a "Black Numenorean" was a Second age term only, so any Black Numenorean would be over 3000 years old. But it is not so. Actually Black Numenoreans were a people of Numenorean origin living in Harad (and probably in Mordor as well) throughout the III age. Some of the rulers of Harad were Black Numenoreans.
There were many Numenoreans living in ME at the time of the Downfall, and so they survived. Some were "king's men", called Black Numenoreans, worshipping Morgoth and refusing to speak elvish. The others were "the faithful", still honoring the Valar and Eru, even after the Downfall. The faithful joined Isildur and Anarion and were the base of Gondor population. All Numenoreans were proud of their origin and tried not to mingle with lesser men. In the north, people of Numenorean descent were called "dunedain" = men of the west in Elvish. Some black numenoreans allied themselves with Sauron, others probably put the blame of Numenor's downfall both on Sauron and the Valar and so remained more or less neutral in Harad. Umbar corsairs were descendants of Black Numenoreans. Queen Beruthiel was a Black Numenorean. Mouth of Sauron was one also. The latter must have worked for Sauron since his return to Mordor - for about 70 years so he was not an old man either (by numenorean standards).

As for Gothmog, I think he was a nazgul, though there is no direct evidence.

CrazySquirrel · 04-05-2005, 01:03 PM

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

Twista · 04-05-2005, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

Yes, the lord of all Balrogs was also called Gothmog so you are correct in that sence.

But Gothmog is also the name of a 'Orc' General in the war of the ring.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-05-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

We are speaking of Gothmog II here, of course

nice to meet you BTW, why dont you introduce yourself in the welcome thread in general messages

Halbarad of the Dunedain · 04-05-2005, 05:08 PM

Whatever Gothmog was I know what he wasn't... a retarded, bell's palsy suffering, pale pink skined, one handed, dip $hit that Peter Jackson made him to be.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-07-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Whatever Gothmog was I know what he wasn't... a retarded, bell's palsy suffering, pale pink skined, one handed, dip $hit that Peter Jackson made him to be.

LMAO!

HistoryGuy · 04-07-2005, 06:41 AM

Gothmog was the Lt of Angband in The Silmarillion. He was a character to remember because he lead his Troll Guard, and brood (along with Orcs, Wolves, Uruloki, and others) to Gondolin. By that time, Gondolin was the last great Elven city (Noldor) in Beleriand. Gondolin would destroyed, and it's two trees would be burnt.

Gothmog in LotR, I would say have to be a Black Numenorean.

11-04-2004, 08:26 AM	#1
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	Gothmog is there any decisive statement that states what gothmog was? all he is referred to as in lotr is the lieutenant of minas morgul. i have difficulty seeing him as an orc, but also i have difficulty seeing him as a lesser nazgul. perhaps more along the same lines as the mouth of sauron, a black numenorean? thoughts...ideas...?

11-21-2004, 11:43 PM	#4
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Welll orcs definatley had to have leaders. No army could run without some kind of rank system. That would eb silly! I htink he wa sjust a really powerful orc who had made hsi way to the top. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

11-22-2004, 09:59 AM	#5
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	yes, an army need some sort of rank system, and if I were to decide who should rule on of the greatest citys in my kingdom, I donbt' think an orc would be the one. rather a black numenorean. maybe an orc in charge in a battle on the battlefield, but not to rule a city of that sice. __________________ Don't Panic!

12-06-2004, 06:09 PM	#6
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	i agree, he was probably a black numenorean, i dont really think that sauron trusted his orcs that much to put one in charge of one of his greatest fortresses. __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

12-06-2004, 07:27 PM	#7
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	It says in The Tolkien Companion by J.E. A. Tyler that: Gothmog was "the cheif Liutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll, or NAzgul - is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the battle of the Pellennor Fields after the fall of the Overlord" So that leaves it open for speculation, he could be a Black Numenorean, but he would have lived a little long i think, he is probably one of the Maiar that Sauron took under his control __________________ What was lost is now found. Last edited by ItalianLegolas : 12-06-2004 at 07:32 PM.

12-08-2004, 04:44 PM	#9
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	How can you say that he lived to long to be anything. As fare as I know he is just once mentioned and there we were not given his age. Thus, as fare as we know he could have been a jungster of let say 30 years for all we know when he was seen on the Pelenor. Respectfully Findegil

03-18-2005, 01:00 AM	#12
Beor founder of the color blue Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: E-Space Posts: 1,727	Gothmog from LOTR was a used car salesman from New Jersey, which rests right where Minas Morgul used to be. Its crazy how these things work out. __________________ Well, there it is.

04-05-2005, 01:03 PM	#15
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Hay, wasn't he a BARLOG? The one Glorfindel killed? Glorfindel has returned why not the barlog? And Gandalf returned and Sauron.

04-05-2005, 05:08 PM	#18
Halbarad of the Dunedain Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Arthedian Posts: 460	Whatever Gothmog was I know what he wasn't... a retarded, bell's palsy suffering, pale pink skined, one handed, dip $hit that Peter Jackson made him to be. __________________ "Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen

04-07-2005, 06:41 AM	#20
HistoryGuy Sapling Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7	Gothmog was the Lt of Angband in The Silmarillion. He was a character to remember because he lead his Troll Guard, and brood (along with Orcs, Wolves, Uruloki, and others) to Gondolin. By that time, Gondolin was the last great Elven city (Noldor) in Beleriand. Gondolin would destroyed, and it's two trees would be burnt. Gothmog in LotR, I would say have to be a Black Numenorean.

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