What is death for Ainur?

[CrazySquirrel]

I would like to continue the discussion on death and immortality of Ainur, started in another thread, as I find it very interesting. I am afraid I am not knowledgeable enough in these matters, so I will explain how I see it, and please, correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

sauron was an ainu, they cannot die (the witchking was not, and saruman once was, but he was changed like the other wizards that were sent to middle-earth to be more human... and even then, we can not be sure that his spirit did not continue on)

First of all: What is "to die?"

As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long.

Now let us take an Ainu. They are immortal fëar not necessarily clad in a hröa. (Somewhere Tolkien says that bodies are like clothes to them). Ulmo may appear as a wave, Yavanna as a tree etc., but mostly they are clad in anthropomorphic hröar. If a hröa of an Ainu is irreparably damaged, the fëa clads itself into a new one. No big deal normally.

But there is the notion of an "incarnate" ainu. Melkor and Sauron became more and more incarnate:

From Osanwë Kenta: "Here Penolod adds a long note on the use of /hröar/ by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a 'self-arraying', it may tend to approach the state of 'incarnation', especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). 'It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less to the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. ...Pengolod also cites the opinion that if a 'spirit' (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. ... Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. ... So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.' (Pengolod here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth.

So in LOTR we seemingly have only incarnate Maiar. Sauron became a fully incarnate maia by his own evil deeds (see above). The same may apply to the Barlog.The Istari were clad in real bodies of Men, when sent on their mission to the Middle Earth (and it looks like they were incarnated by the power of the Valar, not their own).

What is death to all these incarnate Maiar? When their hröa is damaged, the immortal fëa lives on, but is nullified - rendered powerless until it manages "to rebuild a semblance of its former habitation" That must take a lo-oong time, (1000+ years for Sauron) UNLESS the fëa gets some help from the Valar (Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month) or from the Ring (Sauron after the Downfall got reincarnated in less than 100 years).
The poor Barlog was "nullified", when Gandalf destroyed his body and he got no external help. Though perhaps, who knows, in 2000 years he may walk again.
The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring.

Interesting what happens with Maiar's hröar. We witnessed several "deaths" of incarnate Maiar:

1. Sauron at Orodruin. We don't know what happened with his body. I personally think that at it was literally burning hot it simply withered to ashes and disappeared, after Isildur cut the finger.

2.The Moria Barlog was thrown down from the mountain peak but then what??

3. Gandalf suffered critical damages in his fight with the Barlog. I think after that he got a new body as
a. he was not immediately recognizable
b. he had no traces of burns and bruises.
c. he claimed that he forgot a lot and remembered a lot etc, no wonder with a new brain!

4. Saruman - most interesting case.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Here no body is left to rot. I think we have two similar cases with the non-Ainur.

1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties?

2. Feanor.

Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.

A death of an Ainu.
If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.


Here is the end of my ramblings. What do you think on this all?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.

Great "conspiracy" theory, CS!!

[brownjenkins]

The same applies to Saruman. No help from the Valar: his spirit turned to the West, but was rejected, so his houseless fëa remained in ME. But I agree with brownjenkins, his spirit did continue on. As well as Sauron's after the destruction of the Ring.

and during his first confrontation with gandalf it was discovered that saruman had also made some kind of "ring of power"... hmmm

too late for me to comment on these thoughts today, but good ones

[Elanor]

Well, I would say that unlike elves and men, the life-force of a Maia is not normally tied to their bodies, but to their power and their will (this is true to a lesser extent for elves and men also; they can die from simply losing the will to live). CrazySquirrel said a lot about Incartation that changes this, but I'll focus on the normal case. When Maiar have more power, their life-force is strong and they can more easily create a new body. When Saruman's staff was broken, he lost his power, and since he had grown bitter by the time Wormtongue killed him, his will was also pretty weak. Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again. I think the Balrog lost its power and will gradually in the fight with Gandalf, so it is also powerless to return.

I believe that their spirits didn't die but that they're still out there somewhere and perhaps have some small intelligence and sense of self left, but with no power or will they are helpless to do anything but perhaps give people evil thoughts. Power is also related to will, I think, for Gandalf seems to have more or less power depending on his mood and level of desperation.

As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Elanor

As for Feanor, I really don't think he was any form of Maia, just an elf whose spirit was too strong for his body. Spirits can be compared to fire, I think. We speak of some people having more "spark" or "fire" than others-- their will is stronger. I think that's what Feanor's "fiery spirit" means. It made him powerful in learning, craftsmanship, and magic, but also arrogant and self-obsessed, and led to his downfall.

That is what was written in the official story. But why did he get so much "spark"?
I think I offer a realistic explanation .

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Great "conspiracy" theory, CS!!

Well it fits, doesn't it? (CS smiles proudly )
Feanor's mother killed herself, his father remarried (also very exceptional- but understandable if his first wife had been unfaithful) and Feanor himself got a "fiery" spirit and a cruel, evil character...

Originally Posted by Elanor

Sauron protected his life-force by putting his power and will into the ring. When he lost it, his body died, but his life-force remained since his power and will still existed in the ring. When it was destroyed, his rudimentary body (the Eye) died again.

You don't really believe that Sauron had no body but the eye???

No, no, it is only in the movie!

[Rían]

thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"

Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ...



(and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

thread question - "What is death for Ainur?"

Answer - listening to Tom Bombadil's songs 24/7 ...

That's why Gandalf never stayed there for more than a couple days.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(and more on-topic : aren't they called the "deathless ones" somewhere? or is my memory failing me?)

In what way are they more "deathless" than the Elves? In both cases the fea is immortal. Only Ainur are normally self-reincarnable , while the Elves need old Namo for that.

[The Gaffer]

Nice topic, CS. Couple of observations:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

As I see it, for a man or an elf "to die" means that their spirit (fëa) leaves the body (hröa) and goes to Mandos and beyond (in case of Men). Hröa remains and slowly rots. Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar. So here we have a "mortal" hröa and an immortal fëa. In this Elves and Men are alike, only an Elven hröa endures much longer, almost indefinitely long.

My understanding was that all elves eventually reincarnate in Valinor, but that Mandos would hang on to them for a variable length of time depending on how goodly they were (the more worthy the quicker their reincarnation).

Also, elves who do not die and do not travel into the West gradually fade from the material world. Their hröa is consumed by their fëa.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

1. the Witch-King - disappeared entirely, leaving no body, either visible or invisible. Perhaps the nazgul acquired some Ainu properties?

I think that ring-bearing gave a Man a different sort of existence. Remember that Frodo would have "faded" and become a wraith if he'd worn the Ring for too long, and how Glorfindel had extra powers against the Nazgul because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, I would say it gives you some Elvish properties rather than Ainu ones.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother.

I'm afraid that you won't be comfortable in my shoes, Squirrel
There is no conspiracy.
Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer.

The Gaffer

I think that ring-bearing gave a Man a different sort of existence. So, I would say it gives you some Elvish properties rather than Ainu ones.

I agree, they would fade eventually into nothingness. The Rings were only posponing the process on indefinite time.

Gordis

I think there might be some evidence to support it, actually. I shall have to think on it more.

How it might happened that in Numenor they have had the same istari-wizards order like in Valinor? Even with Elves they had restricted contacts, but with ainur...
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order.
Gordis

This is true, except that Istari were incarnate maiar, not lower maiar. Sauron was one of the mightiest Maiar, but he has become incarnate as well.

The difference is that one can reincarnate himself, another had to be reincarnated by somebody else. So, on the scale of power Gandalf is much lower than Sauron."I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still" (TTT. "The white rider")

RÃ*an

The Ainur are definitely different than the Eldar, tho - The Ainur were originally outside of Arda, then some of the Ainur entered Arda and some didn't, while the Eldar were created in Arda.

Right, ainur can travel in space and time, so when they abandon their incarnated body they continue on existingin Universe. This is how Gandalf describes his experience when his FЁА left his body.
"I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
..."the stars wheeled over and each day was as long as a life-age on the earth." (TTT. "The white rider")

Gordis

But there was not a single major conspiracy theory since Olmer left!

So, I have got a hat of local jester?
Thanks a bunch, guys!!!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

How it might happened that in Numenor they have had the same istari-wizards order like in Valinor? Even with Elves they had restricted contacts, but with ainur...
Only one occurence of Numenor's straight contact with Valinor has been registered in Numenor's history:in the time of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir "the messengers" from Aman had been wisiting the Isle of Elenna. But I have no idea of how to connect this fact with an establishment of the order.

I was talking about DRAFTS of the text of the LOTR, written at least 10 years before Tolkien has decided that wizards were Maiar. And it was also Long before he invented Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir. At this time Ar-Pharazon was the 13 King of Numenor and the messengers from Valinor came to him

Tolkien's original idea was that wizards were Men: Gandalf spoke of "our noble profession". Originally there was no connection of wizards to Valinor, instead, some of them were meant to be Numenoreans, only with special knowledge and powers.
And though Tolkien has corrected almost all the vertiges of this earlier conception from the text, some are still there. For example:
"Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten"
Now everyone thinks that it refers to Valinor. No, originally it referred to Numenor. And really, what "youth" can Gandalf the Maia speak about? The maia was young long before the stars and the Sun and the trees...

It is useless to argue against the earlier drafts using the conceptions that were developed much later. Yes, sure they do not fit, but that's why they were edited!

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I'm afraid that you won't be comfortable in my shoes, Squirrel
There is no conspiracy.
Did you ever heard of spontaneous combustion? People get burnt to ashes in real life without any illegimate relations to the Dark Charmer.

Welcome back, Olmer.
Well, I will leave your shoes to you, as you are back

But I still prefer my "Feanor as the Dark Charmer's son" idea to your spontaneous combustion.
At least my theory explains all the facts.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

At least my theory explains all the facts.

Curious.
Would you delineate your theory more clearly, so we can see how it explains all the facts?

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Curious.
Would you delineate your theory more clearly, so we can see how it explains all the facts?

I have no time, sorry, to develop a whole theory of what was meant mostly as a joke.

As for all the facts, I meant:

1. Feanor's mother, Miriel, after birthing Feanor, decided to die - unheard of in Elvish history. Suicide.
2. Feanor's father, Finwe, re-married - unprecedented and never repeated deed.
3. Morgoth killed Finwe.
4. Feanor was the most crafty, gifted etc. of all the elves.
5. Feanor and most of his sons were cruel, obstinate and often outright evil, committing crimes unheard of before - kin-slaying, abandoning of his kin in dire situation, burning stolen ships, not to mention attempted rape (Luthien) and usurping Finrod's crown, and two other kin-slaying all done by his sons.
6. Galadriel, who had an uncanny abiity to sense evil (like in Annatar) never liked or trusted Feanor, even before his rebellion, she didn't give him even a strand of her hair, though he was her uncle.
7. Feanor's body disappeared as one of a maia.

Yes, my "theory" explains all these facts, while "natural combustion" doesn't.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Normally the fëar of Elves or Men cannot return back to their own hröar or obtain new ones - the few known "returns" (Beren, Luthien, Glorfindel) were clearly exceptional and made by the power of the Valar.

It wasn't exceptional for the elves; those who return to the halls of Mandos are given the choice of remaining houseless, or to be "rehoused in the same form and shape as they had had" (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, 3rd note).

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Gandalf's fëa went back to Valinor and got reincarnated in less than a month

No, he wasn't sent back by the valar:

Originally Posted by Letter #156 to R. Murray

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

If I wished to step in Olmer's shoes I would say that perhaps Feanor was not Finwe's son, perhaps one of the Valar (Melkor?) was a bit too friendly with his mother. Might explain her strange "suicide" as well.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Of the severance of marriage, HoME X

It is said that Miriel answered Mandos, saying: 'I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it. My life is gone out into Feanaro, my son. This gift I have given to him whom I loved, and I can give no more. Beyond Arda this may be healed, but not within it.' Then Mandos adjudged her innocent, deeming that she had died under a necessity too great for her to withstand.

It is worth mentioning that, in the same text, the valar (Yavanna in particular) attributes the death of Miriel to the _general_ corruption of hroa by the shadow.

Yes, my "theory" explains all these facts, while "natural combustion" doesn't.

There is a "natural (but slow) combustion" for the elven hroa, given the very fire of their spirit - a fact mentioned in Silmarillion chapt. 12 and in Of the laws and customs of the eldar, HoME X. Since Feanor's spirit had more fire than any other elf, there is nothing "maiar" about the burning of his body.

[Sister Golden Hair]

bump post

Testing.

[CrazySquirrel]

Wauu Landroval!

You are a learned one!

Pleasure to have you on the Moot. Welcome!

[Lefty Scaevola]

All the power of the Valar could not enitely destroy Morgoth even when he was captured and the end of the first age. As low as he had sunk, becoming locked in in the last body he had made, his spirit could not be obliterated and he is expected to return at some distant future. The Valar obliterated his bodys, puverzing it and scattering the dust. They dug out and likeiwse dealt with concentrations of his creative essence in the crust of the earth. They used all their power to thrust his spirit out of the creation, but still he is prphised to return for another war in the future. Apparently with enough time, and Ainu can come back from anything.

[CrazySquirrel]

Well Morgoth was a Vala and the strongest originally. Anyway Ainu's fear are really undestructible.
But I think it was made clear, that Sauron would be forever unable to make himself a new body?

About Gandalf, my point was that he was not self-resurrected, someone (well let it be Eru, not Valar) took care of his reincarnation.