Decriminalizing marijuana - Page 2

Dunadan · 10-08-2002, 07:11 AM

To change the law, you have to show clear evidence of medicinal benefit. THis does not exist at the moment. Therefore we shouldn't legalise it (though there is enough anecdotal evidence to study it further).

The freedom of choice argument is much stronger. What right does anyone have to tell me what I can and cannot put into my body? However, this perfectly reasonable position is marred with dodgy beliefs about the harm caused by cannabis. There is strong evidence that cannabis is harmful, particularly when smoked. In particular, it can make existing psychotic illness worse. This makes it hard to have a sensible debate (no joke intended).

However, like Millane, I'd be interested to hear more about the anti-drinking, anti-smoking "moral" stance. If it's to do with harm, are you also anti-driving (which kills more people than heroin)?

markedel · 10-08-2002, 10:14 PM

That is true I've heard of someone with pyschological problems have them exacerbated by use of marijuana. The question is really-are they more harmful then cigarettes and alcohol? If no then they should be strictly regulated-like cigarettes and alcohol.

Cirdan · 10-08-2002, 10:41 PM

What causes more problems, smoking pot or imprisonment? Treatment for people who can't function on it is a better solution. All crimes commited under the influence of anything should be classified as aggzagerated circumstance. In other woprds, savbe the jail for the real trouble makers, high or not.

If soft drugs lead to harder stuff does that mean ice cream leads to bacon?

Dunadan · 10-09-2002, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
If soft drugs lead to harder stuff does that mean ice cream leads to bacon?

Inexorably. And then it's only a matter of time before you move onto ...... cashew nuts!

You're right; if draw leads to heroin, it's because it's illegal, not because one leads to the other. Clearly, regulation would be better than prohibition (which doesn't work). The problem I have is that there is so little honest debate about it, and so much misinformation.

In my view, alcohol is probably less harmful in moderation, but more harmful in excess. Tobacco is more harmful by dint of being extremely addictive, but is less carcinogenic and probably has a stabilising effect on mental health. Yet the general view amongst users is that marijuana is entirely benign (as opposed to carcinogenic and psychotic).

Anyway, just because something is harmful doesn't mean it should be illegal. Rock climbing is harmful, and horse riding is the most dangerous sport in the world; driving your car, riding your bike, why you yourself, Gimli, are beset with dangers .. sorry... must be the drugs.

However, it shouldn't be legalised until we can have an honest appraisal of the effects. In particular, we don't know much about its effects on driving, and would need an effective test. Research in the UK suggests that it impairs driving for 24hours, but remains testable for 4 weeks. There is no "safe level" as yet. Frankly, I don't fancy legitimising a bunch of dopeheads driving their cars around on the roads.

Sween · 10-09-2002, 06:35 AM

i think a lot more effort should be put into find ways of making things like estacy and lsd safe. i mean its ussually what the drug is cut with that cause problems if it could be made safe wouldnt it then be a huge stroke againts the war against drugs?

osszie · 10-09-2002, 01:24 PM

The trouble with a proper scientific apprasial of cannabis is that the plant itself has littterally hundreds of varieties and the potency of the drug (its effect on humans) varies greatly on the conditions the plant was grown in regulating the effects of the drug is near immpossible as a change in temeperature and humidity as the plant is developing will alter the "high" effect.

This also has connotations with laws such as driving etc...........most poeple smoke cannabis in a block (colloquialy known here as tack)........as the cannabis is compressed into the block there is no way to know of the innitial volume of leaf used...........as I'm sure all smokers will know......some blocks are a lot more powerful than others

IMO we cannot conciously allow people to drive under the influence of cannabis while there is still such a "chaotic" factor involved.......one smoke may give you a slight buzz...........when the next may be capable of knocking out a concrete elephant........although IMO people should not be allowed to drive under the influence of ANY drug that can alter perception, including perscription drugs.

To make Ecstacy safe would be a nigh on immpossible task. Ecstacy was originally a refined version of the chemical MDMA (yes the same stuff found in some rat poisons........those little dancing tablets are the same stuff used to kill vermin) over time the manufacturers of E's have slowly replaced the MDMA content with amphetimine (speed etc)...............and the changes are still happening as the dealers find cheaper and more accessable drugs to give a high and still pass off as Ecstasy. Many nightclubs in Holland will test E's for patrons and the variety of tablets sold as E's is just staggering..........everything from flour to Crack moulded into the shape of a tablet.

The only way to make Ecstasy safe is for the government to contract pharmacists to make the stuff...........that'll never happen, even if it did the dealers would just undercut them and put even more poisons into peoples mouths.

IMO LSD will never be safe........aside from the horrendous long term psychological effects the drug has there is also the "flashback", when for no specific reason you experience the effects of LSD after the drug has left your system...........this can happens literally years later. Imagine the scene...........you take the drugs.........years later your driving down the motorway......a flashback hits you and *crash* ya dead.......simple as that

Cirdan · 10-09-2002, 02:02 PM

Ummm... flashbacks are a myth. LSD is too powerful to be toyed with by unsupervised, underage amateurs. It has shown to have some uses in the treatment of chronic alcoholism, but it would be like using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

Sween · 10-09-2002, 02:18 PM

but you do not deny the fact it could be made safe? So theres a safe product that gives the same buzz would people really still buy from dealers who put all sorts of crap in it?

I think thats there are ways and means of making things safe. I think this is a winniable fight whist to try and rid ourselves of drugs in socity is not.

markedel · 10-09-2002, 02:22 PM

That's why I opened the question up with pot-anything harder (even pot that is mixed with other drugs) is simply too dangerous to the system. Danger is not the most important facor-I think it's a question of how much it affects daily life for te average person. Obviously as with alcohol some people do become addicted.

osszie · 10-09-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Ummm... flashbacks are a myth. LSD is too powerful to be toyed with by unsupervised, underage amateurs. It has shown to have some uses in the treatment of chronic alcoholism, but it would be like using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.

You may be right Cirdan......I was using the medical essays of William Burroughs as a referrence for the "flashback" ideas and after a bit of a sniff about the 'net there does not seem to be any substanstiating evidence for flashback.........goddamn hippy culture

...... oh well at least I've learned something

I know that I've never personally experienced a flashback

although I only did take LSD maybe a half dozen times.

LSD is too powerful to be toyed with by unsupervised, underage amateurs. ..............................do you think that anyone can actually become adept at the use of LSD?....the reason I ask is that in my experience (I used to do voluntary work at a drop-in house for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts, not as a counsellor or anything tho') long term use of LSD only leads to mental disorders or a series of "bad trips" whenever the drug is taken

it always seems a "spiteful" drug, i.e the pleasant feelings experienced soon become warped.

Sween · 10-09-2002, 02:36 PM

yeah but in the case of drugs you have to look at the drug itself. i mean you can abuse a lot of things. You can be addicted to food sex i mean some people probably even claim to be addicted to walks in the park or summet like that.

i believe that humans have a tendency to abuse there bodys an awful lot and people will allways take things in excess and will cause themselves problems.

whats this got to do with the legalisation of drugs well my point is that you cannot stop abuse and if something legal or not it makes no difference.

As for drugs they are in socity and the problem is not going to go away there is too much money to be made for people not want to do it. Put a dealer in prision and there will allways be 10 ready to take his place. Now Pots an odd one here as all smokers of it know one batch is never quite the same. It is a plant and it will differ as much as potatos differ but surely we can find effective methods of screening it etc.

The chemical based drugs can be quite easily studied and we know what makes them go bad. surely money would be better spent reasearching how to make these things safe and what makes them go bad.

I personally have little experience of LSD so i wont make any comment on its effects. but you would all agree that if we understood these things better theres a chance would could make them safe or at least find ways of treating suffers?

Cirdan · 10-09-2002, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by osszie
...do you think that anyone can actually become adept at the use of LSD?....

Yes, but I can't think of a more useless skill. I really meant people inexperienced with drugs in general. There are many more less powerful hallucinogens. Yes, it is a spiteful drug; much like selling your soul only to get an ironic punishment instead. Of course, nothing quite compares to it.

William Burroughs?

He was too strung out on heroin to be of much use.

Back to topic. The issue of the strength of today's marijuana has been thrown up ("This is not you father's marijuana") as a reason it is more dangerous. What is missing is the fact that THC has an upper limit after which you can't get any higher. This is not true of any other mind altering substance, and it is the reason pot is so much safer than alcohol. You can't OD on pot, but you sure can on alcohol. Drugs should be regulated based on both safety (mental and physucal health) and the person's condition. If it were legalised the person should have a permit that proves they are not a hazard. Penalties for aiding this person in procurement should be similar to aiding and abetting a felony.

Sween · 10-09-2002, 03:50 PM

but lets not get into the debate on alchol alchol is evil stuff i think its half the people in hospital are in with alchol related problems or is that smoking? oh well nevermind. i personally feel that alchol is much more altering that pot but just cos one evil (and alchol is an evil) is legal does not mean that another one should be.

Cirdan · 10-09-2002, 04:05 PM

The wonderful trick with alcohol and cigarettes is that by the time you are dying it is too late to save yourself. I know people who have had health complications decades after ceasing the behavior. If everyone pays cash out of pocket for the medical care required after extensive substance abuse, then I have no reason to want to impede thier freedom. People who injure or kill other people, intoxicated or not should pay the price here as well. Licensinf fees and taxes on the stuff will help pay for this too and should be graduated based on the risk.

Sween · 10-09-2002, 04:11 PM

i think if ash were made legal it could provide the money to do a lot of good in the world.

Renille · 10-09-2002, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Millane
Just out of interest, Renille, why are you anti-drinking? is it like ethical, health... sorry just curious not many people are anti drinking in Bendigo (where i live) its sorta part of the culture...
as to what you said about illegal well i cant agree in the slightest with your Marijuana P.O.V. relating to medical issues... some people really need it... my friends mam died of cancer and she didnt want Marijuana to help the pain and apparently she was literally dying in agony... dont you think the choice should be there... i dont think we should say no to medicinal marijuana at all seeing as we dont know how much pain a patient may be going through... i can see how you can argue against marijuana for like enjoyment puroposes but if someone is in pain then they should chose weather they can take marijuana or not... the filth that would try and trick people to get a prescription are just f@$#ed in the head that is just wrong...

And I fully respect your point as well,though I DO NOT agree with it!

The reason I'm anti-drinking is probably because I went to school and discovered how people are achoholics. I decided then and there that I would never drink...Just in case I got carried away. I'm a worrier, but I really have got to get into medical school! Anything that could possible stop me is EVIL!

And that is the reason behind the madness.

Cirdan · 10-09-2002, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Renille
And I fully respect your point as well,though I DO NOT agree with it!

The reason I'm anti-drinking is probably because I went to school and discovered how people are achoholics. I decided then and there that I would never drink...Just in case I got carried away. I'm a worrier, but I really have got to get into medical school! Anything that could possible stop me is EVIL! And that is the reason behind the madness.

excellent choice

osszie · 10-10-2002, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Renille
The reason I'm anti-drinking is probably because I went to school and discovered how people are achoholics. I decided then and there that I would never drink...Just in case I got carried away. I'm a worrier, but I really have got to get into medical school! Anything that could possible stop me is EVIL! And that is the reason behind the madness.

Renille your gonna miss out on so much fun

Wot about the headache's, nausia, wondering where you were for 8 hours the previous night?

Seriously tho', good for you

.......... there is so much peer pressure for people to drink, it's good to see someone make the decision not to

Lizra · 10-10-2002, 07:32 AM

I've never experienced LSD "flashbacks" either, thank God! A wackier, more evil drug was never created! Tracers are fun, but after that, ughhh! Altering your perception, with no control over it is totally stupid. I don't know what Timothy Leery was thinking. All drugs are dumb for the reason Renille said, they stop your progress. On my 70th b-day, I'm asking for some pipeweed!

. By then it won't matter much, I guess. (only 23 more years to go!

)

Millane · 10-10-2002, 07:55 AM

Quote:

The reason I'm anti-drinking is probably because I went to school and discovered how people are achoholics. I decided then and there that I would never drink...Just in case I got carried away. I'm a worrier, but I really have got to get into medical school! Anything that could possible stop me is EVIL! And that is the reason behind the madness.

ohhh sorry if it sounded like i was having a go at you i was just curious as to why... its just a thing i have it is the same with vegetarians and there is heaps of different reasons... i know how people say it is so easy for that few drinks to become an alcoholic and that all it starts off at but i just dont understand how people can get so reliant on it like i guess you have to see it for yourself im 16 and there are alot of people, my friends, classmates around my age that are drinking but i know when to stop and i think if you get the drinking over and done with sooner ( i mean no sooner than 16 17 18) then you are likely to lose interest when you get older and there is no one there to help you and support you. i dont drink that much if we are at a party i used to drink a bit but now i just have coke and maybe one drink and me mam knows that and she trusts me and she makes sure that i look after my friends if they are drinking to heavily...
geez i can rattle on cant i?

anyways renille good luck with the medicine thing

10-08-2002, 07:11 AM	#21
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	To change the law, you have to show clear evidence of medicinal benefit. THis does not exist at the moment. Therefore we shouldn't legalise it (though there is enough anecdotal evidence to study it further). The freedom of choice argument is much stronger. What right does anyone have to tell me what I can and cannot put into my body? However, this perfectly reasonable position is marred with dodgy beliefs about the harm caused by cannabis. There is strong evidence that cannabis is harmful, particularly when smoked. In particular, it can make existing psychotic illness worse. This makes it hard to have a sensible debate (no joke intended). However, like Millane, I'd be interested to hear more about the anti-drinking, anti-smoking "moral" stance. If it's to do with harm, are you also anti-driving (which kills more people than heroin)? Last edited by Dunadan : 10-08-2002 at 07:12 AM.

10-08-2002, 10:14 PM	#22
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	That is true I've heard of someone with pyschological problems have them exacerbated by use of marijuana. The question is really-are they more harmful then cigarettes and alcohol? If no then they should be strictly regulated-like cigarettes and alcohol. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

10-08-2002, 10:41 PM	#23
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	What causes more problems, smoking pot or imprisonment? Treatment for people who can't function on it is a better solution. All crimes commited under the influence of anything should be classified as aggzagerated circumstance. In other woprds, savbe the jail for the real trouble makers, high or not. If soft drugs lead to harder stuff does that mean ice cream leads to bacon? __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

10-09-2002, 06:35 AM	#25
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i think a lot more effort should be put into find ways of making things like estacy and lsd safe. i mean its ussually what the drug is cut with that cause problems if it could be made safe wouldnt it then be a huge stroke againts the war against drugs? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-09-2002, 02:02 PM	#27
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Ummm... flashbacks are a myth. LSD is too powerful to be toyed with by unsupervised, underage amateurs. It has shown to have some uses in the treatment of chronic alcoholism, but it would be like using a sledgehammer to crack an egg. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

10-09-2002, 01:24 PM	#26
osszie Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 409	The trouble with a proper scientific apprasial of cannabis is that the plant itself has littterally hundreds of varieties and the potency of the drug (its effect on humans) varies greatly on the conditions the plant was grown in regulating the effects of the drug is near immpossible as a change in temeperature and humidity as the plant is developing will alter the "high" effect. This also has connotations with laws such as driving etc...........most poeple smoke cannabis in a block (colloquialy known here as tack)........as the cannabis is compressed into the block there is no way to know of the innitial volume of leaf used...........as I'm sure all smokers will know......some blocks are a lot more powerful than others IMO we cannot conciously allow people to drive under the influence of cannabis while there is still such a "chaotic" factor involved.......one smoke may give you a slight buzz...........when the next may be capable of knocking out a concrete elephant........although IMO people should not be allowed to drive under the influence of ANY drug that can alter perception, including perscription drugs. To make Ecstacy safe would be a nigh on immpossible task. Ecstacy was originally a refined version of the chemical MDMA (yes the same stuff found in some rat poisons........those little dancing tablets are the same stuff used to kill vermin) over time the manufacturers of E's have slowly replaced the MDMA content with amphetimine (speed etc)...............and the changes are still happening as the dealers find cheaper and more accessable drugs to give a high and still pass off as Ecstasy. Many nightclubs in Holland will test E's for patrons and the variety of tablets sold as E's is just staggering..........everything from flour to Crack moulded into the shape of a tablet. The only way to make Ecstasy safe is for the government to contract pharmacists to make the stuff...........that'll never happen, even if it did the dealers would just undercut them and put even more poisons into peoples mouths. IMO LSD will never be safe........aside from the horrendous long term psychological effects the drug has there is also the "flashback", when for no specific reason you experience the effects of LSD after the drug has left your system...........this can happens literally years later. Imagine the scene...........you take the drugs.........years later your driving down the motorway......a flashback hits you and crash ya dead.......simple as that

10-09-2002, 02:18 PM	#28
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	but you do not deny the fact it could be made safe? So theres a safe product that gives the same buzz would people really still buy from dealers who put all sorts of crap in it? I think thats there are ways and means of making things safe. I think this is a winniable fight whist to try and rid ourselves of drugs in socity is not. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-09-2002, 02:22 PM	#29
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	That's why I opened the question up with pot-anything harder (even pot that is mixed with other drugs) is simply too dangerous to the system. Danger is not the most important facor-I think it's a question of how much it affects daily life for te average person. Obviously as with alcohol some people do become addicted. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

10-09-2002, 02:36 PM	#31
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	yeah but in the case of drugs you have to look at the drug itself. i mean you can abuse a lot of things. You can be addicted to food sex i mean some people probably even claim to be addicted to walks in the park or summet like that. i believe that humans have a tendency to abuse there bodys an awful lot and people will allways take things in excess and will cause themselves problems. whats this got to do with the legalisation of drugs well my point is that you cannot stop abuse and if something legal or not it makes no difference. As for drugs they are in socity and the problem is not going to go away there is too much money to be made for people not want to do it. Put a dealer in prision and there will allways be 10 ready to take his place. Now Pots an odd one here as all smokers of it know one batch is never quite the same. It is a plant and it will differ as much as potatos differ but surely we can find effective methods of screening it etc. The chemical based drugs can be quite easily studied and we know what makes them go bad. surely money would be better spent reasearching how to make these things safe and what makes them go bad. I personally have little experience of LSD so i wont make any comment on its effects. but you would all agree that if we understood these things better theres a chance would could make them safe or at least find ways of treating suffers? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-09-2002, 03:50 PM	#33
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	but lets not get into the debate on alchol alchol is evil stuff i think its half the people in hospital are in with alchol related problems or is that smoking? oh well nevermind. i personally feel that alchol is much more altering that pot but just cos one evil (and alchol is an evil) is legal does not mean that another one should be. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-09-2002, 04:05 PM	#34
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	The wonderful trick with alcohol and cigarettes is that by the time you are dying it is too late to save yourself. I know people who have had health complications decades after ceasing the behavior. If everyone pays cash out of pocket for the medical care required after extensive substance abuse, then I have no reason to want to impede thier freedom. People who injure or kill other people, intoxicated or not should pay the price here as well. Licensinf fees and taxes on the stuff will help pay for this too and should be graduated based on the risk. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

10-09-2002, 04:11 PM	#35
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i think if ash were made legal it could provide the money to do a lot of good in the world. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-10-2002, 07:32 AM	#39
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I've never experienced LSD "flashbacks" either, thank God! A wackier, more evil drug was never created! Tracers are fun, but after that, ughhh! Altering your perception, with no control over it is totally stupid. I don't know what Timothy Leery was thinking. All drugs are dumb for the reason Renille said, they stop your progress. On my 70th b-day, I'm asking for some pipeweed! . By then it won't matter much, I guess. (only 23 more years to go! ) __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 10-10-2002 at 07:34 AM.

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