Goldberry

[Forkbeard]

There is a lot of discussion about Tom Bombadill, but I have to ask about Goldberry. What is Goldberry? Yes, the book says she's the River's daughter...but what does that mean exactly? Is she Maiar? A lesser spirit? Or is "Riverman's daughter" just that she is the daughter of a mortal who lives on the River (no, I don't think so either). Is she a goddess? She in some ways anticipates Galadriel....What do you all think?

[Beren3000]

I think that she's like the nymphs of Greek mythology: a river spirit. However, I think she's so closely tied to Tom Bombadil that you can't figure her out unless you know who Tom is and vice versa.
I agree with your point that she's an "introduction" to Galadriel.

[Attalus]

I agree that Goldberry is a lot like a naiad, the water-nymphs of Greek mythology. I think, like Tom, any attempt to further identify her as a maia is a mistake. There is much in Tolkien's legendarium that is designed to be obscure. And, yes, in her role of nuturer and adviser of the Hobbits, she does indeed foreshadow Galadriel.

[Lefty Scaevola]

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters. you have no better way to proceed than to list all the info their is about her, use it to exclude some races, and then judge what she best fits as.

[Elanor the Fair]

River-woman's daughter, River-daughter, daughter of the River - Goldberry is called all of these. What do they mean??

A river sprite - very possibly. The river personified?? Well, in every instance when Tolkien refers to Goldberry the word "river" is capitalised. This means not just a river, but the river as a person. Think about all the references to Goldberry...

Then another voice .... like the song of a glad water flowing down into the night .... came falling to meet them.

Reed by the living pool.

She passed out of the room with a glimmer and a rustle. The sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling

She seemed to be enthroned in the midst of a pool.

Her gown rustled softly like the wind in the flowering borders of a river.

Goldberry's song " told the tale of a river from the spring .. to the sea.

She held a candle ... and the light flowed through it(her hand), like sunlight through a white shell.

She was clad all in silver .... her shoes were like fishes mail.

Goldberry sang many songs ... they saw in their minds pools and waters...

Her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light light the glint of water on dewy grass flashed from under her feet as she danced.

But most significantly...
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter. Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!
Tom seems to indicate that Goldberry's beating heart was noteworthy. A non-living thing suddenly becoming alive?

I think this indicates that Goldberry is of the water in some way - perhaps the daughter of the River itself.

[Attalus]

That fits with her being called 'River-Daughter.' I remember being a bit surprised, the first time I read the books, that we never encountered her again, she is so fully realised,

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

That fits with her being called 'River-Daughter.' I remember being a bit surprised, the first time I read the books, that we never encountered her again, she is so fully realised,

To me, she is a "Narnia" moment in the LoTR. She seems to me most like Lewis' adaptation of pagan figures to his Christian world of Narnia; Galadriel seems in some ways very much a weather deity or local deity incarnated in Middle Earth.

[inked]

Goldberry and water associations! In the hierarchal universe created by JRRT she is perhaps best considered the literal daughter of the Platonic form River, a Queen of the Naiads, so to speak. If this seems to be too grandiose, then a lower hiearchal rung would work. She could be considered the local equivalent for a specific geographical region (the Old Forest or the Withywindle drainage basin, etc). I don't think this violates JRRT subcreation but is specific realization of it in anticipation of Galadriel.

I think the resonance with Narnia is present and arises, not so much as an homage to CSL, as a necessary outworking of the Platonic concept from which both Inklings worked.

And, though I know that JRRT and Charles Williams were both Inklings, I am not suggesting a direct influence on JRRT's Goldberry, but wouldn't she be an example of Platonic form much as the ones in PLACE OF THE LION?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by inked

Goldberry and water associations! In the hierarchal universe created by JRRT she is perhaps best considered the literal daughter of the Platonic form River, a Queen of the Naiads, so to speak. If this seems to be too grandiose, then a lower hiearchal rung would work. She could be considered the local equivalent for a specific geographical region (the Old Forest or the Withywindle drainage basin, etc). I don't think this violates JRRT subcreation but is specific realization of it in anticipation of Galadriel.

I think the resonance with Narnia is present and arises, not so much as an homage to CSL, as a necessary outworking of the Platonic concept from which both Inklings worked.

And, though I know that JRRT and Charles Williams were both Inklings, I am not suggesting a direct influence on JRRT's Goldberry, but wouldn't she be an example of Platonic form much as the ones in PLACE OF THE LION?

Hey Inked,
I'm not convinced of all the particulars, but the general thrust, yes. But if this is the working out of a Platonic concept, why don't we see or hear more about such beings as Goldberry? Anywhere? But I'm still thinking this through, so will post more later.

FB

[inked]

Forkbeard,

It is worked out in the characters of Celeborn and Galadriel, Arwen and Aragorn, Sam and Rosie, etc, isn't it? The platonic hierarchy, not the water!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

There is no answer to be had from Tolkien's text, notes, or letters...

Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

[Attalus]

Hmm, so is that why Tom gathers lilies for her and she sits among them? That is a striking image but has rather puzzled me.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Not exactly so. In the letter #210 Tolkien states that "Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes" in the river-land.
So, in a way she is a lesser than maia local spirit ,created, or probably got herself created out of Ulmo's waters.

In part, it is this letter which creates my question. Neither she nor Tom fit as Maia, and Tolkien to the best of my knowledge never really outlined what the "less than maia" beings might be or look like or at like; the description of Goldberry as the River's daughter doesn't seem to me to indicate that she is such a spirit. And yet, does Tolkien's mythology allow for such beings? Or should you answer with Tolkien's comment on Tom, that she isn't to be examined closely and doesn't benefit from such examination anyway?

Inked is right that G and T fit an interesting pattern of couples in ME.

[HLGStrider]

Do you know what it reminds me of? Eve being drawn from Adam's rib, the part about being found with her heart being, that is. Think about it. God created for Adam a "companion" because all the animals had mates of the same sort, and Adam did not. In this case it is possible that Eru drew Goldberry out of the water as a worthy mate for Tom, and that she represents water and he earth. It is even possible that Tom himself drew her out of the water, if not from his own being, to create a worthy, equal help mate.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Hmm, so is that why Tom gathers lilies for her and she sits among them? That is a striking image but has rather puzzled me.

The first time I read The Lord of the Rings I assumed that without the presence of water and water-lillies, Goldberry would cease to be 'alive' and would turn back into the water from which she was 'born'.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

The first time I read The Lord of the Rings I assumed that without the presence of water and water-lillies, Goldberry would cease to be 'alive' and would turn back into the water from which she was 'born'.

Hmm, very interesting interpretation. I like it. Tom does say that he is gathering lilies for his Lady, not for the two of them.

[Haradrim]

I think tom created her otu of his love for nature. He loved the earth and the world so much that one day it gave something back to him. Goldberry. He almost needs her. He needs someone to hold on to. I never thougtht TOm was bound to this world. I think she kept him there I think he to was a creation of the life spirit of the earth itself and was allowed to roam the worlds and then the earth gave him something else and he didnt want to.

[Attalus]

Tom created Goldberry? Now that is a wilful misreading of Tolkien. Nobody but Iluvatar could create a living being in the entire Legendarium. The poem says directly that he found her.

[HLGStrider]

I would say there are two possible options:
She was created for him as a gift.
She was simply another being who he found and took to heart.
They were created simultaneously as a working pair.

I think him finding her on the river makes the last unlikely, but not impossible. They could have been created simultaneously but seperately and Tom then wondered into her as plotted by Illuvatar.

I like the idea of the first. The second, however, is very possible, and I doubt we can have a direct answer.

[Lizra]

Gee guys...I read it as ....she was a lovely being Tom was fortunate to stumble upon, and he subsequently fell infatuated with/in love with...she returned his affections easily and naturally, and the two became "one" ...their love for each other growing and creating more joy and possibilities for good things in life than they had seperately. This type of "two are better than one" thing happens all the time! Goldberry is some sort of female water spirit of early origin...Tom..."The Master" of his own space, I'm not sure.