Philosophy

[Millane]

i did a search and all i could come up with was some thread discussing political philosophy so heres a REAL philosophy thread for us all to enjoy. It doesnt really matter what you want to talk about, whether it be a specific philosopher or just some concepts you dont understand or even those big questions you ponder over when you cant sleep...
well ill start off, i pretty much just love philosophy, it is the only subject at school that i really enjoy, this year were studying 14 authors (or rather 14 different writings of these authors)
they are Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Nietzsche, Sartre, King, Murdoch, Plato (yes again its not a typo), Descartes, Turing, Armstrong, Plato, Popper and Kuhn... thats right that bastard Plato pops up three times throughout the yeafr
anyway we have done the first 7 and i must say, although i didnt agree with most of them, i really enjoyed studying them... in particular Epicurus' "Letter to Menoeceus" i found to be the best of the first three, and of the next four 'modern' philosophers i enjoyed Nietzsche and Murdoch the most then Sartre and then Martin Luther King, who although expressed his views well, didnt grab me like the others....
Anyway ive been studying Iris Murdoch tonight so she is the freshest on my mind, she is a neo-Platonist in many ways (she believes in a transcendantal reality and for her and Plato this is the world of the Forms) one of the things i really liked about her was her unique views, it is something very remarkable for a modern philosopher to believe in the world of the Forms and the form of the Good not as metaphors or as concepts but in the literal way Plato meant them. She believes that humans are naturally selfish and that if we can realise the form of Beauty we suddenly become selfless and everything else becomes less important compared to the thing of beauty. She believes Beauty can be seen in Art and Nature, this means that HB could be listening to a piece of classical music and become selfless or that i could be listening to a Manson song to the same end or Falagar could be reading a great piece of writing in Game or any number of things... I guess why i really liked her views was because she has intergrated a 2000+ year old Philosophers views with her own 20th century life, also theres nothing better than sitting down to a good piece of Art and becoming 'selfless'
anyway please talk away

[Rían]

Glad you started this, Millane, I've been wanting to start a similar topic, so I'll just join in here instead.

A coupla questions for you-

1. What do you think of Nietzche? What did you enjoy about his thoughts? What areas do you agree and disagree with him in?

2. What do you mean by "selfless"? Is it the opposite of "selfish", since you used that word, or just kind of a neutral state? Acc'd to Murdoch can we become totally selfless, and if so, what does that mean?

3. What do you consider to be beautiful in a Manson song? (I'm not that familiar with his works)



Anyway, don't answer if you don't want to, but I had those questions pop into my head when I read your post

[Bombadillo]

Philosophy is awesome to me. It must be the most interesting, intruiging, and non-stop-learning-associated thing ever for me. I have not studied specific philosphers, but that is the one thing I'm already looking forward to for next year's class I'll take. It's wonderfull to look at so many different points of view, all more or less about peace and harmony through the recognition and apprectiation of beauty. From that, very generally, I have to contribute that open-mindedness is the best trait you can possibly have.

I'm esspecially eager to figure out why Plato (the bastard ) is allowed to be so glorious.

Millane, what caught my eye in your post was your calling Iris Murdoch a "neo-Platonist," and later saying that her views were unique. It's hard not to sound rude or skeptical in writing, but how do you think that is possible? (...interperet that as possible?)

EDIT: This year and last I've been touching upon philosophies in literature, and many (none come to mind, now that I think about, of course) had me react pretty negatively. If I view someone else's philosphy as un-thought-out nonsense --compounded in stupidity by the fact that they live their whole life by it-- how is my additude looked upon?

[Katt_knome_hobbit]

I don't know much about philosophy except that I love it.

I sat in on my friend's Macheoveli class and enjoyed it a lot.

The thing is that people say they want democracy and freedom, but what they really want is stability and for tomorrow to follow today. They want things to work without their effort.

[Mercutio]

Random comment number 1: My dad has a philosophy Ph.D.

Random comment number 2: My brother is majoring in computer science and philosophy.

Random comment number 3: There's a really funny philosophy/theology book--illustrations demonsrating major ideas/people using pigs.

Random comment number 4: All is water (just kidding!)

[Millane]

Originally posted by RÃ*an

Anyway, don't answer if you don't want to, but I had those questions pop into my head when I read your post

hahaha its fine, its why i started the thread

1. What do you think of Nietzche? What did you enjoy about his thoughts? What areas do you agree and disagree with him in?

I loved Nietzsche, first off the great thing about him was his genious writing style, a very heavy dose of metaphor and poetry, in particular i guess i really loved his emphasis on creativity...

2. What do you mean by "selfless"? Is it the opposite of "selfish", since you used that word, or just kind of a neutral state? Acc'd to Murdoch can we become totally selfless, and if so, what does that mean?

yes the opposite of selfishness, she seems to use the words selfless and unselfing a lot throughout the article. Yes she means that we can become totally unselfish when we see the form of beauty in Art or Nature..

3. What do you consider to be beautiful in a Manson song? (I'm not that familiar with his works)

ooooh so many songs, at the moment it would probably be In the Shadow of the Valley of Death, the music and the lyrics all just blend together and you just really admire the music for itself, i dunno thats what its like for me, also Kill Bill soundtrack

Originally posted by Bombadillo

Millane, what caught my eye in your post was your calling Iris Murdoch a "neo-Platonist," and later saying that her views were unique. It's hard not to sound rude or skeptical in writing, but how do you think that is possible? (...interperet that as possible?)

i was meaning her views are very unique for a modern philosopher, saying that i would still call her unique because although she agrees with many of Plato's ideas she has interpreted and evaluated and changed them enough to essentially call them her own i guess.

I'm esspecially eager to figure out why Plato (the bastard ) is allowed to be so glorious.

hahahaha because he was an incredible philosopher with great original ideas

EDIT: This year and last I've been touching upon philosophies in literature, and many (none come to mind, now that I think about, of course) had me react pretty negatively. If I view someone else's philosphy as un-thought-out nonsense --compounded in stupidity by the fact that they live their whole life by it-- how is my additude looked upon?

hahaha well it depends on the philosopher your talking about, it would be a very big statement to say call the Gorgias "unthought out", theres nothing wrong with dissagreeing though, i found myself to disagree with King a lot.

[GrayMouser]

It's too late at night for me to jump into this (great idea, though!)
so I'll just post this link for now
(Warning- PG-13)

http://www.uq.edu.au/philosophy/pd/springer.html

(It helps if you know that Jerry Springer is a really sleazy talk show host who stages bizarre confrontations )

[Janny]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Random comment number 1: My dad has a philosophy Ph.D.

Random comment number 2: My brother is majoring in computer science and philosophy.

Random comment number 3: There's a really funny philosophy/theology book--illustrations demonsrating major ideas/people using pigs.

Random comment number 4: All is water (just kidding!)

*Adopts Eddie Izzard philosopher voice* Well, I fear it was erroneous of you to suggest your posts were random; they seem to follow a nice order from stating your credentials, to coming to a relevant if slightly random point, tomaking a funny remark. Consider if you will the tone of the post if they were order with your first coming fourth, and the fourth coming third. Or indeed if you had swapped the order and left the numnber lables the same....
*Snaps out of it*

It seems to me you all love your wisdom.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Random comment number 2: My brother is majoring in computer science and philosophy.

as in like a combined field? or two seperate? if its combined are we talking like artificial intelligence or something?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
as in like a combined field? or two seperate? if its combined are we talking like artificial intelligence or something?

Double major..well sort of. He's getting a masters in Comp. Sci. and a bachelors degree in Philosophy.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Millane
hahaha its fine, its why i started the thread
I loved Nietzsche, first off the great thing about him was his genious writing style, a very heavy dose of metaphor and poetry, in particular i guess i really loved his emphasis on creativity...

I meant not so much style, but rather specifics - can you think of some specific thoughts of his that you really like, or think are perceptive/right? (quotes if possible; summaries if quotes aren't possible )

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Hmmm... I think that is interesting... I'm sure quite a few people wouldn't be able to consider Manson's music "beautiful".

What is beauty?
I think it's sort of a mathematical thing... ratio and proportion... composition, if you will. I think it CAN be seen in many things. It's just sort of an awe-filled existance... something outside of our everyday lives, often in the duration of day-to-day life, but somehow seperate... I don't think it's about whether you like something or not. You have to have the ability to learn to recognize it in things, and then you can find it in many things that you maybe wouldn't immediately like.

Ugh, that sounds cliché-ish.

hm, now another topic for anyone who would care to discuss...
What is Art? Is it the same as Beauty? Can art exist naturally, or occur incidently, or must it be intentionally created by someone? Does it have to express a feeling or idea, or could it be purely aesthetic? What if someone sees something-anything- that to them expresses a feeling or idea, does that make it art?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Millane
... She believes Beauty can be seen in Art and Nature, this means that HB could be listening to a piece of classical music and become selfless or that i could be listening to a Manson song to the same end or Falagar could be reading a great piece of writing in Game or any number of things... I guess why i really liked her views was because she has intergrated a 2000+ year old Philosophers views with her own 20th century life, also theres nothing better than sitting down to a good piece of Art and becoming 'selfless'
anyway please talk away

Sorry Millane, but when you first started this thread, and I read this, juxtaposed with your current sig:

GETTING HIGH ON VIOLENCE, BABY!

... it was just hard for me to reconcile the two together.

But then, I must admit I'm not much up on 'philosophy' as an academic study.

[Janny]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
What is Art? Is it the same as Beauty? Can art exist naturally, or occur incidently, or must it be intentionally created by someone? Does it have to express a feeling or idea, or could it be purely aesthetic? What if someone sees something-anything- that to them expresses a feeling or idea, does that make it art?

I believe art is inextricably linked to beauty, or at least the human perception of beauty. This excludes modern art, not all of it, but certainly the neat pile of bricks passed off as art at Tate Modern. However it does include bleak unaethetically appealing art. Misery does certainly appeal to humans, even if only the enjoyment of one's wallowing in misery.
I think also for something to be art there needs to be appriciated as something which required skill to produce... back to the brick arguement. But the appearance of art in nature is presumably a philosophical arguement for God. If not, I may have made one...
Just my $0.02

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
What is beauty?
I think it's sort of a mathematical thing... ratio and proportion... composition, if you will. I think it CAN be seen in many things. It's just sort of an awe-filled existance... something outside of our everyday lives, often in the duration of day-to-day life, but somehow seperate... I don't think it's about whether you like something or not. You have to have the ability to learn to recognize it in things, and then you can find it in many things that you maybe wouldn't immediately like.

Sminty you really need to check out American Beauty like Ive been telling you.

[Janny]

Did you think that American Beauty expressed beauty? I thought it was a good attempt to do so, but something about it seemed flawed... I can't articulate but I felt like I was cheated from real beauty somehow. *Thoughtful pose*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Janny
.... *Thoughtful pose*

That made me crack up, Janny! I love that!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Janny
Did you think that American Beauty expressed beauty? I thought it was a good attempt to do so, but something about it seemed flawed... I can't articulate but I felt like I was cheated from real beauty somehow. *Thoughtful pose*

it wasnt supposed to show you "real beauty". The point was that you need to find that yourself. the movie hints at how beauty can be found in things we would not otherwise see as beautiful. and that ideal "beauty" can be anything but. Its a statement about our cultures point of view on beauty and truth. and about what we are missing. but its so much more then that even. its about whats surface deep and whats profound. and how our misunderstanding of beauty can cause horrific things to happen. but then perhaps what is horrific is actualy beautiful...

[Bombadillo]

Thanks for setting me straight there Millane.

Originally posted by Janny
It seems to me you all love your wisdom.

Definately! Our wisdom is the definition of ourselves. And of course it's truly good wisdom, or else we might actually be wrong. (That never happens. )


Of art and beauty, I think they are seperate things, but may be connected by the thinker. I can't elaborate on that without a narrative so: I am depressed because I can't do anything right and everything sucks for me (hypothetially, mind you), and so I go to the most peaceful area I know of, a small portion of a wide stream that opens up into a still pond in a thickly wooded area. I want to just stop and think for as long as I can, but as soon as I get there the sky clouds up, becomes bleak grey, and it begins to rain, disturbing the flat surface of the water and corrupting the image of the woods from peace to loneliness. So I think "Look at this; it just shows you that I can't find what I want anywhere, not even in my most trusted place."

That's poetic, and therefore artistic, that the situation would so accurately explain my mood. (In other words, yes art happens naturally .) I look for peace, and am in a dissapointed mood, and then utterly dissapointed by a dissapointing scene. Those woods become an embodiment of dissapointment. <--Artistic

I'm depressed still, and so I just get more depressed by realizing the irony of the situation. but to a bystander who is familiar with my mood, who also recognises the irony, they may like it for some reason, find it comforting or pleasing, not in a cruel way but in appreciation for the inevitable laws of life. To that person, the situation has become beautiful.

[Millane]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I meant not so much style, but rather specifics - can you think of some specific thoughts of his that you really like, or think are perceptive/right? (quotes if possible; summaries if quotes aren't possible )

well i havent read all that much (only a portion of The Gay Science) but i loved his thoughts on Morality and Values, i just thought that his concept that God is dead seemed to really open up a new perspective about humans for me. When people think of morality it is usually second nature and it is so ingrained that we mistake it (well i think anyway ) for instinct, however when Nietzsche introduced the notion of God is Dead and the consequences that result from it, showed me just how much our societies are based upon a priori values (and that for me means false values). Just curious do you think that if God and his morals were taken away there would be more choice in life? - sorry about the specifics i will repost again tommorrow when i have the article with me also delves into how atheists are still pious which also has some discussion value

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Hmmm... I think that is interesting... I'm sure quite a few people wouldn't be able to consider Manson's music "beautiful".

why not because they dont like his music or because his music cant be beautiful? do you think other music could be beautiful?

I think it's sort of a mathematical thing... ratio and proportion... composition, if you will. I think it CAN be seen in many things. It's just sort of an awe-filled existance... something outside of our everyday lives, often in the duration of day-to-day life, but somehow seperate... I don't think it's about whether you like something or not. You have to have the ability to learn to recognize it in things, and then you can find it in many things that you maybe wouldn't immediately like.

so you think of beauty outside of physical objects, but displayed in physical objects, do you mean it can be explained in mathematical terms or beauty is mathematics?, what you are describing is very similar to what Murdoch would think beauty could be, for her it was something so simple as a Kestrel flying in her window, she looked at the bird and it wasnt that it was in itself very pretty or anything but it was everything else seemed so not worthless but less important compared to it.

Originally posted by Valandil
Sorry Millane, but when you first started this thread, and I read this, juxtaposed with your current sig:

GETTING HIGH ON VIOLENCE, BABY!

... it was just hard for me to reconcile the two together.

But then, I must admit I'm not much up on 'philosophy' as an academic study.

hahahaha actually it was just some more Manson lyrics but i guess i could explain the philosophical worth in it, how bout i believe humans have a natural disposition to violence, however running with Callicles thought (or was it Socrates ) thousands of years ago the weaker humans who made conventional morality took the idea of violence and associated it with wrong so they could supress the strong, violence is present in everyday life and so the natural human urges for violence explain the GETTING HIGH ON VIOLENCE, BABY!, now see how easy it is to incorporate pretty much anything into Philosophy.
seriously you can find philosophical references in many Manson songs Astonishing Panorama of the Endtimes could be seen as agreeing with the Nietzsche idea of God is Dead (aptly with him screaming KILL YOUR GOD ) also in Get your Gunn the line I hate therefore i am can be seen as a take off of Descartes famous argument I think therefore i am, and lots more so lets all run off and listen to the philosophical delights of Marilyn Manson