LotR, Book VI, Ch-1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Butterbeer]

Shame on you Gor, CAB and Landroval ...

... what is this 'agreement' notion that you speaketh of?

Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

Actually, i DO disagree with this. I don't think this is actually relevant here: I see it not as a simple mathematical sum,

Gandalf's power plus the One Ring's power versus Sauron's power



The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...

the point from your quote relates more to the time and effort it would take gandalf to become the Ringlord and Lord of the rings, whilst sauron would have a window of opportunity with his armies and allies to attempt to defeat gandalf in this time.

Thus i think it bears little to no relevance to the Ring V's sauron.

... saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring.

Yes, this is what i refer to: and indeed for the whole history of Middle Earth and the rings of power to make any sense it must be so!

Else why, when the ring is severed from him does Sauron flee, a disembodied fea?

Why when the ring is personally delivered into the fire by Gollum and Co the toothy couriers ... does the foundations of baradur (built with the power of the ring) and Sauron vanish in a twinkle of a hobbit lasses's eye?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that!

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...

wotcha Serenoli!


Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring...


... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ...


IT IS A CONDUIT.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that!

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...

wotcha Serenoli!


Nay, fair maiden, think rather that the power and the willpower are all there manifest in the ring...


... but it is a ring! a golden ring for sure .... it has not mouth nor arms nor legs to carry it ... it is the spirit and will and power, but mainly it is a ring ...never ended signifying many things ...


IT IS A CONDUIT.
IT CHANNELS ENERGY AND FOCUSES THE WILLS OF ADAMANT.
It is also designed to ensnare and encompass the powers and wills of the other rings / ringbearers.

For all the raw power and evil will, it, like any tool, it needs a craftsman to wield it and use it ... only then when the mind of the user engages it can the will and evil of the ring begin to try and take hold of the ringlord ...thus it never really got a true grip on Gollum, other than low-level ring radioactive "leakage" as it were, over time, knawing away at his mind...


It uses or is used willingly or quite often even unknowingly or not each user "according to their abilities" ...but only when it is being worn and to some low level way engaged can it effect anything ...

this, i think, we see at Cirith Ungol.

But the Ring itself is to me the dominant (potentially) part of the duality...

Landroval:

though work-related stress might leave its marks .

Indeed

[Landroval]

The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...

Letter #246 reffers to one-on-one confrontation between Gandalf and Sauron; it also states that should Elrond or Galadriel (who are one of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth) master the ring they would not contemplate such a confrontation with Sauron.

the point from your quote relates more to the time and effort it would take gandalf to become the Ringlord and Lord of the rings

I am not aware such a refference exists.

only then when the mind of the user engages it can the will and evil of the ring begin to try and take hold of the ringlord

I disagree; Gandalf refuses even the safe-keeping of the ring, fearing its corruptive power.

Else why, when the ring is severed from him does Sauron flee, a disembodied fea?

Why when the ring is personally delivered into the fire by Gollum and Co the toothy couriers ... does the foundations of baradur (built with the power of the ring) and Sauron vanish in a twinkle of a hobbit lasses's eye?

It seems to me we are talking about different things. The fact, in itself, that the ring has a major influence over the bodily existence of Sauron and his creations still doesn't tell us much about the ring's "martial" power; critical does not imply powerful. To make an analogy, the computer that controls a nuclear reactor doesn't have much power in itself, though its dissappearance would destroy the reactor too.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

It seems to me we are talking about different things. The fact, in itself, that the ring has a major influence over the bodily existence of Sauron and his creations still doesn't tell us much about the ring's "martial" power; critical does not imply powerful. To make an analogy, the computer that controls a nuclear reactor doesn't have much power in itself, though its dissappearance would destroy the reactor too.

I agree with this. These are two different qualities. They could be related, but they don’t have to be.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

The point is here, no one doubts as and when gandlaf finally masters the ring and focuses his will into getting the full power and command fromj himself and the ring, that he would defeat Sauron with all his rings, and armies and fortresses / allies etc ...

I wouldn’t have doubted it, until a little while back when I saw the letter Landroval was speaking of. So far as I know, there isn’t anything that contradicts the idea that Gandalf with the Ring couldn’t defeat Sauron, so I think we must except it.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Actually, I DO disagree with this. I don't think this is actually relevant here: I see it not as a simple mathematical sum,

Gandalf's power plus the One Ring's power versus Sauron's power

I know that what you meant by this depends on the idea that Gandalf with possession and full control of the Ring would be stronger than Sauron, but I think it is true in another way. Probably no one but Sauron could fully utilize the powers of the Ring. So the Ring could be stronger yet still: Gandalf + Ring < Sauron.

The Ring vs. Sauron is an interesting question, but we really don’t have a lot of useful evidence. So, I can only think of two ways to answer. 1. The Ring’s practical strength in a confrontation with Sauron was less than Sauron’s (due to the reasoning that Landroval gave). 2. The Ring’s absolute strength was greater than Sauron’s (which would depend entirely on the quote I was speaking of before). Butterbeer, you seem to remember this quote also. Do you know where it is? I looked around a little but couldn’t find it. I saw “great part” in a couple of places, but not “greater part”.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I saw “great part” in a couple of places, but not “greater part”.

I do remember "great" but not "greater"

Originally Posted by Landroval

The nazgul stand or fall by Sauron; if the ring perishes, so will they. I don't think they are suicidal, though work-related stress might leave its marks

The Nazgul stand or fall by Sauron, because at the end of the TA he has their 9 Rings.
When he was disembodied at the end of the 2 age, the nazgul were NOT disembodied as well - they simply went East.
As I already pointed out not even Elrord was sure that the power of the 19 rings would vanish with the One gone. There was a possibility that the other Rings would become free. Perhaps nazgul hoped to become free as well, when the One was destroyed. All they had to do was to dig their rings out of the rubbish of Barad-Dur.

CAB, great new nazgul conspiracy idea. Indeed, the orcs who started the fight were those of Minas Morgul. Nazgul were able to drive orcs forward in battle madness staying themselves behind the lines - it is canon.

So why not suppose that one nazgul was hovering over all the time, making the orcs attack each other? . The sly fox appeared only when all was over and the hobbits out of the fortress.

[Landroval]

As I already pointed out not even Elrord was sure that the power of the 19 rings would vanish with the One gone.

This bit of information:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

But secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last

was probably not wholly hidden from the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.

The Nazgul stand or fall by Sauron, because at the end of the TA he has their 9 Rings.
When he was disembodied at the end of the 2 age, the nazgul were NOT disembodied as well - they simply went East.

I don't see where you actually contradict me. Here is the quote I was reffering to:

Originally Posted by The ring goes south, FotR

The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him

[Gordis]

This bit of information:

But secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last

is from the "Of the rings of power and the third age", that was written after the War of the Ring. The narrator is so sure on this point, because he has access to the experimental data on the effects of the Ring-destruction. The text was stylised (deliberately) to represent a mannish chronicle of the 4th Age. You will see that some info in the same text is deliberately inaccurate (like telling it was Frodo, not Gollum, who threw the Ring into the fire) No way it can be the source of information on what the Ringbearers believed BEFORE the Ring was destroyed.

The other quote, from the LOTR, Counsil of Elrond, is the only source of information concerning the ringbearers' beliefs and doubts in the Third Age. Only, Landroval, you have cut a half of it, leaving only the part that suited you better.
Here Elrond's words are in full:

`But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'

It is crystal clear, that even "the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth " does not have a definite answer. He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary. And really how could ANYONE be certain before the actual experiment?

Originally Posted by Landroval

I don't see where you actually contradict me.

Why should I always contradict you? In this case, I only elaborated...

[Landroval]

He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary.

Others of the _Wise_? I doubt that. If anything, we know what Galadriel herself thought on the matter:

Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten

That makes two of them .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Others of the _Wise_? I doubt that. If anything, we know what Galadriel herself thought on the matter:

That makes two of them .

Yes. Two out of how many? As "the Wise" were not only the Keepers of the Three - the Wise were the same as the members of the White Counsil, those who discussed the Ring and the Rings, who knew of them, and who kept them.
There was an excellent thread somewhere here about the number and personalities of the White Council. When I find it, I shall post the link.

[Landroval]

Two out of how many?

I don't know how many; according to Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:

...and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir. And Curunir (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.

However, we should note who made those opinions: Elrond the greatest of loremasters (cf The council of Elrond) and Galadriel, who was "wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas" (cf Galadriel, HoME VII; also mentioned as a match of the noldor loremasters of Valinor). Moreover, Galadriel states (Mirror of Galadriel) that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves". She definitely was not out of the loop .

Of the others who thought differently, we don't even know if their opinion was any worth.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It is crystal clear, that even "the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth " does not have a definite answer. He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary. And really how could ANYONE be certain before the actual experiment?

Gordis, I am going to agree and disagree with you (once again ).

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

So..., it doesn’t seem that Elrond knew for certain. Kind of hard to argue with that.

But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'

I think that “maybe” and “belief” definitely indicate that Elrond was giving his opinion. It might have been an opinion that he was almost certain of, but it was still just an opinion.

Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought.

Originally Posted by Gordis

He believes that the Three would fail, but some others of the Wise, believe just the contrary.

I don’t see how “some” necessarily means other members of the Wise. Also, it doesn’t say that they “believed” that the three rings would become free, but that they “hoped” so. They might have believed just the opposite.

Sorry, just nitpicking, I know.

[Gordis]

Here is the thread I was looking for:
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...ighlight=White

Originally Posted by Landroval

I don't know how many; according to Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:

However, we should note who made those opinions: Elrond the greatest of loremasters (cf The council of Elrond) and Galadriel, who was "wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas" (cf Galadriel, HoME VII; also mentioned as a match of the noldor loremasters of Valinor). Moreover, Galadriel states (Mirror of Galadriel) that "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves". She definitely was not out of the loop .

Of the others who thought differently, we don't even know if their opinion was any worth.

The GREAT EXPERIMENT proved them wrong, of course.

But still among the Wise, there were some who believed otherwise. And their opinion was not entirely discarded by Elrond: he DID mention it as a possibility.

What about Saruman, the chief Ring-expert? We don't know.

Galadriel, of course, was the one who knew more about the Rings than any other living creature, save Sauron himself. Wasn't she Celebrimbor's friend and maybe even sweetheart? Well, I am not going to defent the "sweetheart part", but still she was the only one who discussed Rings with Celebrimbor himself.

Nazgul had no such inside information. All they knew about the rings was either from bitter personal experience, or told by Sauron, the Father of lies. They could have the same hopes as some of the Wise had.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I don’t see how “some” necessarily means other members of the Wise. Also, it doesn’t say that they “believed” that the three rings would become free, but that they “hoped” so. They might have believed just the opposite.
.

Strictly speaking, you are right. But really, who "some" might have been? It is clear that "some" were of those with whom Elrond discussed Rings. The Rings were not a matter of common knowledge. Most probably "some" were either his counsellors (like Erestor or Glorfindel) or the White Counsil. Most probably, Erestor and Glorfy were on the White counsil as well. We know the White Council DID discuss Rings. Saruman told of the stones in the Rings and no stone in One, they discussed where the Ring might have been and so on. I think the question "what will happen if the One is destroyed?" was discussed there as well.

As for belief and hope... nazgul might have hoped, couldn't they? If their hope proved true, they would be happy and free and no Sauron, and no new Ringlord. Bliss. If not, they only risked dying and going to Mandos and beyond as (without the Rings) they would have done long ago.

[Landroval]

The Rings were not a matter of common knowledge.

I would say that at least for the elves, the location of two of the rings was a matter of common sense (if not more):

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power

Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time. Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond ... whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lorien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel... But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I would say that at least for the elves, the location of two of the rings was a matter of common sense (if not more):

I agree that in Imladris and Lorien everyone knew about the Rings protecting them. Still I don't see Elrond discussing the effects of Ring destruction with his Elven kitchen maid. And, if he did, why would he even mention her opinion at the Counsil?
It looks like "some" were people of some importance.

[Landroval]

Still I don't see Elrond discussing the effects of Ring destruction with his Elven kitchen maid. And, if he did, why would he even mention her opinion at the Counsil?

Strawman
We do not know if those who hoped that the rings would be destroyed are cooks or White Council members (they could be both). We only know of two named informed opinions, and they say otherwise...

[Earniel]

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs?

The Ring's powers seem often to delay his return to Sauron's hand instead of hastening it. It was the Ring's attraction also that made Gollum turn his back on the world and hide in a deep and dark cave where nobody else was likely to come by it. It seems to be able to so short bursts of mind-domination, but is often set back by it's own power of attraction. It could get the orcs to attack Isildur, but led to being lost in the Gladden Fields. It managed to incite Deagol to find it in the river (possibly even influenced the fish to get him in the water?) but only managed to wind up in a deep cave. It succeeded in getting Bilbo to notice it on the floor, but ended up with a rather resiliant carrier.

Although I reckon that making Sam look like a warrior was a bit of a side effect. Sauron would have used the Ring to keep control of his orcs, so I'm thinking the Ring had a natural effect of impressing orcs, making the bearer look commandeering. And the Ring also seems to have the strongest force of mind-domination when it's worn or held thightly, like Sam was doing.

How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

I think Sam still deserves a good deal of credit for what he did. Granted, the orcs had made it easier for him, but he still went inside a tower full of orcs all by himself. That takes some bravery. Only inside did he see there was barely anyone left. Still, I dare say there have to have been more orcs right up the moment Sam entered the tower. Below they might all have been dead for a few minutes, but higher up (where it took Sam longer to get) there must still have been orcs fighting when Sam passed the guards. Who else shot the two orcs Sam saw running out of the entrance? And those archers would have to be killed shortly after that.

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?

They definitely don't get great press, that's for sure. They're vicious, ugly, back-stabbing and have quite a few other nasty habits. And yet, I have to admit, they engender some amusement. The way they act makes you think of them as charicatures instead of normal characters, mirrors of the bad sides of humanity. It made me think that by fighting orcs, you're esentially fighting a not-so-glorious side of yourself. Even the noble and good Elves have bad sides, shown in the Silmarillion. So the orcs must have some good sides of their own, yet it is never shown.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)

I think Sam was in a way lucky that he didn't have to wear the Ring for so long. Up until now Frodo had been carrying the Ring for weeks and even months on end, and that must have had a great deal of effect. Frodo is weary and worn which can't have been caused merely by Shelob's bite or the brief and nightmarish stay at Cirith Ungol, it must have been the effect of the Ring, grinding down his defenses. If Sam had been the one to carry the Ring alone from Cirith Ungol too, he would have experienced the worsening effect too. His condition on arriving at Mount Doom would not have been much better than Frodo's, I think.

So I don't think their personalities were as much at play here as the lenght of time carrying the Ring.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Seems to me, much of Sam's luck has to be attributed to the Ring. His miraculous passing of ever vigil Watchers, unexpected instigation of bloody fight between the best corps of Mordor, and subsequent travelling with orcs troops , completely unrecognizable, could be related to the power which chanelled his thoughts as a will in some way to dominate others, thus to overcome obstacles, and arranged it accordingly. The power of the One.

I'm not sure that much can be attributed to the Ring. Sam passed the Watchers with help from Galadriel's phial. And the orcs fought among themselves not for the Ring, but over Frodo's mithril mail, which would have been worth much even to orcs.