LotR, Book VI, Ch-1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Serenoli]

The Tower of Cirith Ungol brings to an end a suspense that was started at the end of The Two Towers, and which was brought to a highlight at the end of Book Five: is Frodo dead or alive?

The chapter deals with how Sam uses the weapons left to him- the Ring, Galadriel's phial, Sting and his plain hobbit-sense. After some deliberation, he screws up the courage to walk into Mordor and he manages to pass the mysterious Watchers with the help of the phial. He scares off two orcs- Snaga and Shagrat, the only orcs alive after a bloody battle between the hundreds who were initially there, over Frodo's belongings, in particular, the mithril-coat. Finally, he discovers Frodo, (alive, hurray!) restores the Ring to him, and disguised as orcs, they leave the dreaded tower. Their perils are not over, though; for the Watchers send out a cry that attracts a nearby nazgul who they have to escape as well.

The mood for Mordor is set in this chapter- Frodo becomes the mysterious third person while Sam becomes the lead voice; the fear and suspense of Mordor, where they are forever fleeing from one danger to the next, (be it Nazguls, orcs, or hunger and thirst) is established. And, finally, the advantages of being a small, unnoticed hobbit become paramount in the quest.

Favourite scenes:

Undoubtedly seeing vicious orcs being scared by Sam! And, also the description of Mordor as Sam first sees it… stark, and bathed in a blood-red light from Mount Doom… creepy.

The indirect help the Elves give them… Galadriel’s phial, ‘Elbereth’ the password, and when they try to pass the Watchers a second time, it is a phrase from an Elvish song sung by Gildor that gives the phial enough strength to break the Watcher’s barrier. It is interesting, too, how Sam begins to sing of the Shire when he gives up Frodo and that, unexpectedly, leads him to Frodo.

Key discussion points:

What is the significance of this chapter, in your opinion?

Why does Sam put on the Ring near the start of the chapter?

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?

When Sam hands Frodo the Ring, Frodo has a momentary vision of him as an Orc who is trying to steal his Ring. Compare it to the way he felt when Bilbo wanted a look at his ring, back in Rivendell.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?

[Olmer]

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?

The same what had happened. Gollum was still there.

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

Seems to me, much of Sam's luck has to be attributed to the Ring. His miraculous passing of ever vigil Watchers, unexpected instigation of bloody fight between the best corps of Mordor, and subsequent travelling with orcs troops , completely unrecognizable, could be related to the power which chanelled his thoughts as a will in some way to dominate others, thus to overcome obstacles, and arranged it accordingly. The power of the One.

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?

No one race of humankind deserves total annihilation. Especially orcs, since their story have never been heard, and whatever information we have got on them was basicaly writen by theirs enemies and by brainwashed individuals.

[Gordis]

Thank you for the neat chapter review, Serenoli. And sorry it had taken me so long to reply.

Why does Sam put on the Ring near the start of the chapter?

Curious, indeed. Probably he acts unconsciously, mechanically, being distressed and uncertain what to do. The Ring had seized the opportunity, and made him put it on without thinking.

Is it ironic that the Ring itself aided Sam by making him seem more powerful than he was, to the Orcs? How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

The Ring did help Sam. After all it was made to dominate those around, the orcs surely.

How does the description of orcs in this chapter tally with your previous impressions of them? Does it reinforce the idea that 'orcs deserve no pity'... or does it make you feel sorry for them?

It makes me sorry for them. They are so VERY human-like in mind... Not some alien monsters as in the movie. They are not automates, they misbehave and act contrary to their orders. We learn in the chapter that they live in fear of the High-Ups, in fear of the Black Pit. It is not explained what it is, but sounds ominous. In the next chapter we will learn that everyone has a personal number - Mordor accuracy and high organisation is evident. No wonder the orcs dream of getting away on their own.

At one point, it is said: "He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows" Sam takes the first choice, and resists its power. Is this Tolkien's way of showing the choice that Frodo had to face, then and later in Mount Doom? Sam's choice is influenced partly by love of his master, and partly by his unconquered hobbit-sense. Do you think that it was harder for Frodo to resist, as he was less like a hobbit, and more Elvish? (He is called Elf-friend many times in the story)

I believe it was harder for Frodo. But not because he was an Elf-friend (Sam was also enchanted by Elves) but because he had the Ring longer - for almost 20 years. Also, he was weakened by the Morgul-wound, wich seemed to accelerate the effects of the Ring. He really became less of a hobbit, more of a wraith. And he started to train his will to dominate the others - willingly or unwillingly. Look how he cowed Gollum.

What if Sam had given up Frodo for dead, or unrescuable, without making sure, and had tried to go on and destroy it by himself? What do you think would have happened?

Perhaps, Sam would have killed Gollum before they got to the Cracks of Doom. And then... I don't think that even the steadfast Sam would have thrown the Ring in.

[CAB]

Thank you very much for the summary Serenoli.

I would second pretty much everything Gordis has already said. I think she makes a very good point about Frodo willingly or unwillingly (or unknowingly) training himself to dominating others. I had never picked up on that before.

Originally Posted by Serenoli

How much of Sam's deeds can be attributed to his credit, and how much to pure chance?

In a sense, Sam deserves all the credit. He had to have the courage and will to do these things. He did have some help though. Aside from the Ring, I think he also received some aid from some “higher (or maybe even highest) ups”.

Originally Posted by Serenoli

When Sam hands Frodo the Ring, Frodo has a momentary vision of him as an Orc who is trying to steal his Ring. Compare it to the way he felt when Bilbo wanted a look at his ring, back in Rivendell.

This is an interesting question. I had always thought that the vision of Bilbo was due to the Ring’s effect on Bilbo while the vision of Sam was due to the Ring’s effect on Frodo. After thinking about it though, I believe probably in both cases it was primarily the Ring acting on Frodo. The first vision may have been an early example of the Ring’s hold on Frodo.

[The Gaffer]

Excellent summary; nice discussion points. I'd like to add one:

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?

I agree...
I think it would have been OK if they killed each other over the Ruling Ring. But over a mithril shirt - doesn't sound true. Especially the actions of Morgul orcs. They had to remember their orders better and also think about the Black Pit and the Houses of Lamentation.

[Butterbeer]

mmm ... but what was the ring really up to?

Superb questions Serenoli - the best i have seen yet. Very nice summary; short, succinct yet full of interesting debate!

Wotcha Gor!! ... how ya diddling?

Nice to meet you CAB! (have read some of your posts - very interesting - though i must admit sometimes i think ..go on CAB!! go on ..you CAN argue with Gor if ye wants ... ... she likes it anyway!

*nods at Eddy*

Always a pleasure lord Olmer!

hey Val if you are around??



yes, we see almost a human face to the Orcs for almost the first time. it always amazes me how just because Tolkien said somewhere that the wars etc were not great influences how all the major over-riding influence all over his works and thoughts gets sidetracked .... did it ever occur to them that JRRT was probably gently leant on to say this??

yet two major world wars, civil war in europe, the horros and stupidity of the trenches, Mass genocide, Industriliastion ... terror, Communism, Fascism, weapons of mass destruction etc ... all made no impact on his life and thus his writings? Thought control, using the free will and humans as human pawns in bloody war games ...

Phuh- lease.

Sorry, but i for one just will not buy it for a second - besides it is all there in the LOTR.

I also love Serenoli, how Sam appears with a power hidden yet felt, with a shadow looming large above him as some mighty warrior / power or tark of some forgotten age ...


Just what is the ring up to here?? I agree it is inflicting its influence as it enters Mordor and nears the Fire ... but it is not Sauron's will seemingly.

For me Sam is harder for the Ring in some ways to work on ... frodo always had a more cutting, sharper mind and stronger will / more pride than Sam ... Sam was infused with solid unbreakable devotion ... a clear must-do attitude as thick as any bricks ...but also suffused with LOVE ... a treeksy one for the ONE!!

The gaffer:

Excellent summary; nice discussion points. I'd like to add one:

Does anyone else think that the two tribes of orcs exactly killing each other off was.. er .. a bit challenging in the credibility department?

It was the ring!
Were there not nazgul close?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BB

Wotcha Gor!! ... how ya diddling?

Thanks!
- Good... or, maybe, bad. If only I knew what "diddling" is!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Nice to meet you CAB! (have read some of your posts - very interesting - though I must admit sometimes I think ..go on CAB!! go on ..you CAN argue with Gor if ye wants ... ... she likes it anyway!

Nice to meet you too Butterbeer. I do find it a bit difficult to argue with Gordis. She knows this stuff better than I do. But she has never been anything but polite. I hope you stay around Butterbeer.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

yes, we see almost a human face to the Orcs for almost the first time. it always amazes me how just because Tolkien said somewhere that the wars etc were not great influences how all the major over-riding influence all over his works and thoughts gets sidetracked .... did it ever occur to them that JRRT was probably gently leant on to say this??

yet two major world wars, civil war in europe, the horros and stupidity of the trenches, Mass genocide, Industriliastion ... terror, Communism, Fascism, weapons of mass destruction etc ... all made no impact on his life and thus his writings? Thought control, using the free will and humans as human pawns in bloody war games ...Phuh- lease.
Sorry, but i for one just will not buy it for a second - besides it is all there in the LOTR.

Pleasure is mine, Butterbeer . Don't have too much time to get into discussions, but always glad to see reappearance of old acquintances. Hang in there...
Agree with you. It is impossible to live in society and don't have any associations or not to be even remotedly affected by the events which were shaking up the better half of the World. Tolkien was not an exeption. How you can write a story devoid of allegories, if even your thinking about real life events associated with terms taken from the book?
From Tolkien's letters to his son Christopher in 1944, this is how he was describing the war.
If anguish were visible, almost the whole of this benighted planet would be enveloped in a dense dark vapor, shrouded from the amazed vision of the Heavens!

For we are attempting to conquer Sauron with the Ring. And we shall (it seems) succeed. But the penalty is, as you will know, to breed another Saurons, and slowly turn men and elves into Orcs.
Not that in real life things are as clear cut as in the story, and we started out with a great many Orcs on our side...
You are inside a very great story!

He wanted it or not, but the story was heavily influenced by his personal attitude regarding important events of his time and its participants, as he absorbed it from the laden with propaganda newspapers and radios. So, in the "LotR" are 2 diametrical opposite sides: Black and White, and they, who on the black side, don't have any grace and don't deserve any mercy.

But the whole beauty in the "LotR" is that it CAN'T be viewed as a correct source of descriptions of Arda's inhabitants, because, as Tolkien claims, he made a translation from the "Red Book of Westmarch", written by scribes of Gondor and by hobbits of Shire on the base of the original Red Book, a compilation of stories, which have been added and many times rewriten during passing milleniums.
So, most of the time the dialogs are not written, as it had been heard by an eyewitness, but have been reconstructed some time later from the memory of the observers, or just remodeled according to believes of the writer.

We don't know EXACTLY what Shagrat and Gorbag were talking about, because we can't be sure how accurate could it stay in the memory of Sam, and how precisely Frodo put this story in writing .
Actually, considering Tolkien's assumptions that his "translation" also could be not exactly correct, we have to assume that we can't judge about the real
portray of the War of the Rings, basing our opinions on the words of persons in the story, because they represent the White side and their description of events and races is biased by the "popular believes".

Therefore, we can't get a real picture of orcs or of their actions by studying one-sided preconceived observation. It is similar to the impression we will get about the leaders of the past, if, not knowing nothing about them and how do they look like, we would look at the pictures of them made by theirs enemies. German-Austrian emperors, princes and generals.

So we can judge orcs doings by the scrupulous study of the story's canvas. And in this canvas some threads are not so closely woven, leaving plenty of space for speculations and assumptions.

For me the deadly fight between two commands of orcs, which supposed to be among the top of Mordor's army, looks kind of unnatural, too.
Which means that it was stemming from something unnatural - in particular, Sam with the Ring on his finger unconsciously giving an ordes to orcs, and they can't obey the will of the Ring.

[The Gaffer]

hey BB.

Never considered that it might be the Ring at work, though I also like the passage with Sam seeming to the orcs to hold some terrifying power.

But there are so many instances of the Ring "trying to reveal itself" to its Master elsewhere in the story that I don't think it would do the opposite.

[Gordis]

Thanks for kind words, CAB.
And Olmer, I agree wholeheartedly with your view of Tolkien's works.

By the way, Olmer's idea that it was the Ring that caused the orc fight is awesome! I never thought about it, but it is quite possible.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But there are so many instances of the Ring "trying to reveal itself" to its Master elsewhere in the story that I don't think it would do the opposite.

After all the Ring was not exactly sentient, IMHO.

I don't think it really hears, or sees, or thinks, most likely it perceives the thoughts of its bearer. For instance, it "sees", or 'feels' the nazgul only when Frodo is aware of them, not before. And then it acts on Frodo making him put it on. Because it "prefers" to be with a nazgul, rather than with Frodo.

But I am not sure, if it "prefers" to be with an orc rather than with a hobbit. Because it didn't "call" to the orc whom Sam met in Cirith Ungol. It daunted the orc instead, helping Sam. Why? probably the hobbit was carrying it into the right direction, towards its master. I doubt the Ring ever "knew" that they were going to destroy it in Mordor, it was just content to move in the right direction - towards its Master.

So, perhaps, when Sam put on the Ring approaching the Gate of Cirith Ungol, the Ring only felt his plight. Ii understood, that its bearer desperately needed to kill some orcs - too many for him alone. So the ring "helped", rather subtly, making orcs forget their orders over a stupid mithril shirt.
Because, the Ring is not really a weapon of war, no super-sword, or a bomb, it is uniquely a psychological weapon.

Interesting, it was not how the Ring acted when Isildur wore it. Then it called to any creature around, orcs included, "preferring" anybody to the hated Isildur, slayer of the Master:

The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, 20 and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid. -UT

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

By the way, Olmer's idea that it was the Ring that caused the orc fight is awesome! I never thought about it, but it is quite possible.

hey Gor!

erm "Diddling?" .... generally .. just getting along you know?

(it's a people friendly how ya diddly-doing you know??? )

ref the quote above- well... er, whatever! .. but for the record i always thought that from the very first time i ever read the book...


... but it really doesn't matter.

What does matter is that, we have intelligent discussion about the books being allowed!

Good on you.

best all, BB

[Menelanna]

I think that the importance of this chapter was to show the readers that Sam was also a very important member of the fellowship. Up until this point, he was always overshadowed by Frodo, or by one of the other members. This chapter was his time to shine. This chapter was used to prove that Sam was more than a "yes-man" or whatever, he proved strong, loving, smart, and brave.

I think that the reason that Sam put the ring on when he did was both because he needed to be invisible to get by the orcs and also because the Ring wanted him to put it on. Why did the Ring want him to put it on? If you've noticed while reading, the ring only drew attention to itself when it was close to being discovered by someone that would take it back to its master. After all, wasn't part of its master used in creating it? That's why it was so strong. And that's why it was always searching for a way for it to be reuinted with its master.

Sam's deeds in this chapter are mostly because of Sam. Did the ring aid him in his acheivement? Well yes, when he needed to be invisble, he used it. But for the most part, it was because he knew what to do. Mostly because he knew that his master was in danger and he was his master's only help. He used all of the things that he had in his power to get the job done. I don't think he even realized what he was capible of until he was put into that situation to where he had to act.

Frodo's vision of Sam turning into an orc was proof that the ring was working on Frodo, but I believe that when Frodo saw a glimpse of Bilbo looking like Golum was a sign of how the ring was influencing Biblo. Biblo did have the ring a very long time, and if you recall when we were first introduced to the ring, Biblo did refer to the ring as his "precious" just as Gollum did. Bilbo was desiring the ring, even if it was just to hold it for a minute. And yes, I believe that the ring had used the vision as a way to influence Frodo also. As Gandalf had said, the ring had chosen Frodo.

[CAB]

Nice post Menelanna. I think you are right that one of the primary purposes of this chapter is to show us that Sam is capable of quite a bit, as you say he is not just a “yes-man”. One of the things that interests me about Sam is that, to the best of my knowledge, he is the only character in the stories of Middle Earth who accomplishes something great yet doesn’t have some sort of high lineage (high lineage being relative, depending on the group of people to whom the character belongs).

I don’t think the Ring chose Frodo though. It might have chosen Bilbo since he was the one to pick it up but more likely it was Eru who chose both Bilbo and Frodo to hold the Ring.

‘Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.’ -Gandalf to Frodo, The Fellowship of the Ring

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Interesting, it was not how the Ring acted when Isildur wore it. Then it called to any creature around, orcs included, "preferring" anybody to the hated Isildur, slayer of the Master:

Interesting point indeed.

Raises the question could the ring master others, but also therefore also BE mastered by others if they were of sufficeint will power and strength? - after all this was of course NEVER an issue with Sauron since to a large degree they are (or WERE) one and the same.

Actually i think the WERE question is just as interesting to look at ...

But if, as you suggest, Gor, the ring called out (this suggests a fair level of Sentience to some degree in itself possibly ...) - then is this because it feared being enslaved ITSELF??? i.e. by the will of Isuldur?

How much do we, now, after so many years sundered, see the ring as a seperate entity to Sauron, ... or not?

Remember that for many of these years Sauron was bodiless and weak - yet the ring?


best, BB

[Gordis]

I am not sure that the Ring was smart enough to answer the questions such as "what if Isildur masters me one day?"

It just hated him, felt bad near him, burned his hand, tried to get away at every opportunity. Perhaps it was calling strongly to those around Isildur: his sons, his men, orcs...

With Gollum the ring was not so active: it certainly didn't call to orcs, or Gollum would have been captured long ago, invisible or not. But it found a hobbit and got out of the caves. Later, with Bilbo and Frodo, the Ring behaved rather well. It acted only when it felt a nazgul nearby. It must have been fond of nazgul.

[Butterbeer]

but what if it was actually THE RING itself that was seeking the hobbits -that Picked Bilbo and thus frodo?

The ring that (as discussed inthe tower of Cirith Ungol disc thread) actively helped Sam to rescue frodo - and made them appear as orcs to hasten them towards the fire?

maybe it wasn't just the Nazgul that felt trapped or feared Sauron getting the ring?

Odd isn't it that it never betrayed Gollum and found a a vassal in the Mountains to help it find it's "Master" ??

[Gordis]

I think the Ring knew that NO ONE was strong enough to throw it into the fire.

And it was right.

It knew, that Frodo would claim it, and that would lead it into Sauron's hands inevitably.

So, it helped Sam and Frodo to hasten towards Mt.Doom, slowly acting on Frodo's mind and knowing what he will do better than he did himself.

[Butterbeer]

ahhh Gor ...but Sam's mind?

That didn't worry it??

I mean it had enough problems trying to corrupt Bilbo, over so many years, he who took the ring in that momment with pity in his heart.

Sam, infused with love, devotion and steadfast common sense and about as corruptible as an Angel's tear of of joy ...

this when they are closing in on the Fire and time is potentially short????

If the ring had betrayed Sam then, and not (perhaps) caused the Fighting madness and rivalry between the Orcs ... would it not have it safely been on it's alleged "master's" hands within a day at most?

Nay, for me the ring was at work, but not for it's supposed Master ...

Sam's mind would frighten it silly methinks - not enough time for it to work on - and very little in terms of levers or arrogance etc in Sam's mind to work WITH!

Also - those watchers of Adamant at the gates to the tower - did they block out the ring's presence from Sau also?

Tis odd that he does not sense the ring being worn in his own land.

and what of the consistently " i seen nuthin' Guv, honest ..." nazgul that yet again cannot see or sense them as they escape the Tower?

your thoughts?



best, BB