Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

[Butterbeer]

mmm ... but did not the people of dunharrow already inhabit their own bodies?

also, was the whole society cursed or just men of warrior age?

Either way, it's one hell of a curse, but interesting that Isuldir, at this point forsaw that this war would last through countless years, and that a time would come when they would be called upon again ... yet knowing this, decided not to destroy the ring?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

mmm ... but did not the people of dunharrow already inhabit their own bodies?

also, was the whole society cursed or just men of warrior age?

Either way, it's one hell of a curse, but interesting that Isuldir, at this point forsaw that this war would last through countless years, and that a time would come when they would be called upon again ... yet knowing this, decided not to destroy the ring?

They are always called "the Dead of dunharrow" not "undead" like nazgul. The nazgul never died, their own material bodies only turned invisible, but they have them all right.
The dead are ... just dead, their bodies rotten ages ago. They are but spirits, shadows, mist. Nobody even sees them, only feels their presence. And everybody is scared to death.

I am not sure Isildur foresaw all these things. He cursed them to remain in ME as long as their promise remains unfulfilled.
But, perhaps, I don't remember it all... Why do you think Isildur forsaw that this war would last through countless years, BB?

[Butterbeer]

now whilst checking for the requested quote above, and accidently noticing an error in the rotk triv game to boot!

i came over this which i had meant to mention ...

"The eyes of Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but sauron has not forgotten Isiludir and the Sword of Elendil ..."

how odd ...

the names and title of the arrivals at Edoras (as Aragorn mentions earlier to Gimli: "You forget to whom you speak ", said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. "Did i not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras?"


not to mention to Eomer on the Wold ...

yet there is Master Grima the wormtongue closeted in Orthanc with Saruman, having told all he could of events ... yet Saruman does not know or perceive Arargorn there?

of course as a member of the white Council presumably Saruman knows that the Line of Elros is still unbroken, and also presumably that the shards of Narsil and other heirlooms of the House are still kept in Imlradis ...

so ... even back then, was Saruman but not Gandalf kept in the dark ... if so why?? ... though i doubt it ..

but also ... how come Orthanc did not know of him ...

for me i always presumbed Saurman did know him or of him being there, but then the question is: why then, keep it from Sauron when he is in trouble with his now "master"?

(since he has now no hope of attaining the one)

[Butterbeer]

ok here's the quote:

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy black master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your Oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end". And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on sauron's part; and they hid themsleves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills.

[Serenoli]

Good point there, BB.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

for me i always presumbed Saurman did know him or of him being there, but then the question is: why then, keep it from Sauron when he is in trouble with his now "master"?

But, then, even though he knew of the heir of Elendil, I suppose it never entered his head, that he would take part in the war, so if he thought of Aragorn at all, he thought of him somewhere in Imladris. And Grima came too late to tell him the news, the Ents had already taken over and the palantir was gone. So when he did realise that Aragorn had come to Rohan, the palantir, his only means of communicating with Sauron, was alredy lost. And he himself was defeated and a spent force.

[Gordis]

BB, thanks for the Quote. You are right, then. The more proof that Isildur was an evil sorcerer long before the finger-slicing episode.

And Re: Orthank. I agree , you must have spotted a mistake.

[The Gaffer]

On the "touch of death" thing, I suspect we can rule that out because elves (according to Legolas) considered the spirits to be harmless.

This is clearly a different kettle of fish from, as you say, undead nazgul or even barrow-wights.

Note also that the material we have concerning feär solely refers to elves. I think we can conclude that Morgoth and Sauron were as in the dark about the fate of Men as the rest of the Ainur. I'm not aware of any evidence to suppose that Sauron had any particularly power over the Dead of Men.

A more likely explanation, to me, is that this episode was set in motion in anticipation of Aragorn's need, millenia later, by Eru acting through Isildur. We have words from the "Seer" suggesting that it might have been anticipated, for example.

[Butterbeer]

wotcha Gaffer!

well yeah, Mr M the Seer did fortell tell this and other things ... but for Eru to break his own laws? (or at least general principles?)

mmm ..not sure.

Plus the comdemned were all the folk

: men, women and children: at very least the latter innocent and robbed of the chance of life and children and choice ...

sounds a somewhat radical departure for Eru?


Serenoli

(wotcha! )

well, grima was in the tower with Saruman, so he would have reported the names .. plus of course Saruman's spies had tracked them for parts of their journey south, knowing their number and composition ...

Wotcha Gor ...

mmm... if so, we better watch Valandil!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

wotcha Gaffer!

well yeah, Mr M the Seer did fortell tell this and other things ... but for Eru to break his own laws? (or at least general principles?)

mmm ..not sure.

Plus the comdemned were all the folk

: men, women and children: at very least the latter innocent and robbed of the chance of life and children and choice ...

sounds a somewhat radical departure for Eru?

I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

What, had the Valar no means to destroy the fleet of Ar-Pharazon? Ulmo the Lord of waters could drawn all the ships and all the warriors like kittens.
It looks like the Valar had pity of men. They just threw up their hands and appealed to Eru. And what did the Dear Creator do? Drawned the WHOLE ISLAND with EVERYTHING there was on it. Only some Faithful had time to leave the land like some rats from a ship...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

mmmm... but the barrow wights could ...????

I think that the Barrow Wights, along with Tom Bombadil are one of the biggest mysteries in Tolkien. They were spirits, who could interact with physical world, but were killed with a song. My guess is that they remained by choice, whereas both the Dead of Dunharrow and the Nazgûl had no choice.

Originally Posted by BB

Telcontar Dunedain:


well, it would make more sense ... but then, how do they touch if they are only in the spirit world ....

what do you think TD?

Perhaps 'pass through' rather than touch then. We're never really told about the Battle for the Ships though, so we are not given many clues.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

LOL.

Bit like young Master Samwise, throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get his way.

EDIT: Wotcha, BB.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

On the "touch of death" thing, I suspect we can rule that out because elves (according to Legolas) considered the spirits to be harmless.

Hm... that pile of armour and bones seems to indicate otherwise.

I agree with what you guys have said about Barrow Wights and Nazguls though.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Bit like young Master Samwise, throwing his toys out of the pram when he doesn't get his way.

I didn't understand this comment at all until I realized you're the Gaffer. That doesn't strike me as something Sam would do.

You know what I really liked about this chapter? The Rangers. I wish they had gotten more page time.

What if there were actually 15 Nazgul. What six other people do you think Elrond would have had in the company?

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I can easily buy Eru theory. He WAS most radical, and irrational. It sounds exactly like him to condemn a whole people. Look what he did with Numenor!

What, had the Valar no means to destroy the fleet of Ar-Pharazon? Ulmo the Lord of waters could drawn all the ships and all the warriors like kittens.
It looks like the Valar had pity of men. They just threw up their hands and appealed to Eru. And what did the Dear Creator do? Drawned the WHOLE ISLAND with EVERYTHING there was on it. Only some Faithful had time to leave the land like some rats from a ship...

mmm .. i beg to differ ... the law was laid down plain and simple ... they were forbidden to go to the shores of the utmost west .... this was clearly broken, and in anger too, with the corrupted pride of numenor going in a vast navy intent on arrogant war ....

i am not sure in context here, you can judge Eru on that one!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Hm... that pile of armour and bones seems to indicate otherwise.

I think the position Brego's (?) body was found in rather shows that he was not attacked, but died a slow death, unable to open the door. He might have been scared to death and lost his way in the caverns. Probably his torch was extinguished...

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You know what I really liked about this chapter? The Rangers. I wish they had gotten more page time.

What if there were actually 15 Nazgul. What six other people do you think Elrond would have had in the company?

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)

Yes, I agree, there is not enough about the rangers.

Why 15 nazgul, ? Had Sauron given all the Dwarven rings to Men, there would be 16, not 15. But the number 16 is not one of those Fairy-tale numbers with specific meaning... Twelve is.

I don't think that the number of the nazgul was decisive in choosing the number of the Walkers. Nine is the number of Perfection in numerology. It was the right size of the group, not too few, but not too many. Accidentally it was also the number of the Nazgul, and Elrond commented on it. 15 or 16 is already a big group, bound to be detected. No, I don't think that Elrond would have sent more than 9.
Anyway, even had he sent 12, I bet neither Glorfindel or Erestor would be in the group. They were SO needed at home and were shiny and easy to spot for the nazgul. And ANY ranger would be as susceptible as Boromir to the Lure of the Ring. So...More hobbits? But where could one get more? Perhaps some Dwarves and lower ranking Elves would be added.

Alt+649 works only with American keyboards, and I get §$]!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

mmm .. i beg to differ ... the law was laid down plain and simple ... they were forbidden to go to the shores of the utmost west .... this was clearly broken, and in anger too, with the corrupted pride of numenor going in a vast navy intent on arrogant war ....

I am not sure in context here, you can judge Eru on that one!

Oh, yes, I can. The laws were broken. But who broke them? Babies in cradles? Fair maidens? Old crones? All the population was destroyed, not only the fleet. Even the fleet was sent to Valinor not so much by Ar-Pharazon, but by Sauron, who gloated at its impending destruction.

And note, the Numenoreans were not the first to break laws. Morgot was. Noldor were. Why didn't Eru blast Utumno, or Angband , or Barad-Dur? Why didn't he drown Beleriand with Feanor and his brood? Double standards, me darlings. Don't tell me he loved his children equally. Valar and Maiar always got a second chance. Men didn't.

[Butterbeer]

Oh, yes, I can.

*loud audience call* oh no you can't!!!

( do you like pantomime Gor? )

..er.. do you HAVE pantomime where you are? ...er ..where are you anyway?




well, i think the point here is that a sepcific ban and and a specific threat of retribution were clearly marked out .... this was the deal made to give the line of Elros et al the island of numenor ... he had no choice but to follow through on that one ...

And note, the Numenoreans were not the first to break laws. Morgot was. Noldor were. Why didn't Eru blast Utumno, or Angband , or Barad-Dur? Why didn't he drown Beleriand with Feanor and his brood? Double standards, me darlings. Don't tell me he loved his children equally. Valar and Maiar always got a second chance. Men didn't.

ahh, politics heh? ... what a wonderful picture of the creator we paint ... we'll have some here up in arms!


But Eru generally was not that involved was he ... but if he agreed to the law laid (and given reprisal) down upon the numenoreans, then if, and when, called on, he has no choice ... but for him to intercede on Isildur's behalf, to curse a bunch of unheard-of edian in middle earth he's cares nothing for one way or the other, seems to me not very likely nor to ring true, me darlings! (great phrase, btw! )

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

(BTW if anyone needs the "ë" for fëar it's Alt+649.)

Handy, unless you're on a Mac. In which case there is a groovy utility you can select from, if only I could be arsed....

But what I want to know is how you pronounce it. It was years before I realised Sauron was suppose to be sow-ron (rhyming with cow-ron) and not saw-ron nor sow-ron (rhyming with toe-ron-ron, te-toe-ron-ron).

And let's not even get into doon-e-dine...

EDIT: back to topic.


The power of oaths.
One of my pet theories is that in LOTR oaths/promises have special power. How often do we encounter people who break their word getting struck down? It happens to Gollum, for example, at the end.

Did Morgoth ever break any oaths? He was just doing what was in his nature. Men, however, have free will. Let the maggots roast! (Definitely an Old Testament deity this one)

Hang on, I'll hunt out a few examples I have tediously dredged up in previous Discussion postings and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that.

[Butterbeer]

why aye, pal!

ah bugger it .. it's still saw-ron, to me.

i always go with 'dun a dan', meself.

[Butterbeer]

..er... yeah .. back to topic (i'm the worst for that y'know ... any excuse or not ... ahem )

Hang on, I'll hunt out a few examples I have tediously dredged up in previous Discussion postings and you can all agree that I'm totally right and that's the end of that.

yeah, that's usually how it works ...

but i admire your confidence ...

[The Gaffer]

Foo's yer doos?

EDIT: here's the only example I have time to root out for now (but it's a good ane; prophetic words about "haunting" you cannot deny):

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...113#post474113