LotR Book IV, ch.9&10: Shelob's Lair and The Choices of Master Samwise

[Earniel]

I'm late, I know, but catching up. Great into, Azalea.

Originally Posted by azalea

There is an interesting comparison of Shelob to dragons, that her hide isn’t soft in spots as theirs is.

Shelob as monster is quite interesting. The comparison to dragons gives the idea that she is indeed a quite powerful monster and one to be feared as well, without actually saying it is so. I also loved the bits how it was described that she was indignant for being actually beaten in her own lair by something so puny and harmless looking. Her lust for vengeance, her pride, it makes her more human than animal, which makes her even a more interesting literairy enemy.

To me, it is an intentional difference written by Tolkien to give the reader a sense of how simply being in Mordor is crippling. It isn’t just the barren land and darkness; it is Sauron’s presence that affects the very air of the land, and also affects the very spirit of those within it. This sense in turn helps the reader to “see� the Ring’s reactions as it nears its maker.

Interesting observation. Tolkien had so much ingenius ways of describing things. He didn't just say "Mordor is a bloody aweful place." He made you realise it on your own by all these little tidbits.

I think it’s a way to tie the history of Middle Earth and the Ring to that moment, that Frodo using the light of one of them is a part of the bigger story of the Silmarils.

I agree. It's one of those things that you only pick up after you read the rest of the books but it gives LoTR a bigger scope: it isn't just one story with an end and a beginning, it is a part of an ongoing history of a world that actually breathes life and that could have been ours.

Originally Posted by azalea

It is interesting that the elvish blade can cut it whereas the man made blade cannot. Why, do you think? Is it the material used, or something else?

Maybe the Elven smiths remembered Ungoliath's part in destroying the Light of the Two Trees in Valinor and decided to take the danger of her and her brood in account when making weapons. There were also several places in pre-flood Beleriand, if I'm not mistaken, where her eight-legged brood were a bloody nuissance. I suppose the Elves just ran into them more to have more reason to make their blades spider-proof. In Númenor the spiders wouldn't have existed, and no humans live in Mirkwood, so humans apparently didn't need extra protection against spiders or spiderwebs.

I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Elvish spoken through Frodo here (and Sam later). Was it the star? Galadriel? Any theories on how/ why this happened, and its effects on Shelob?

Sam also speaks elvish, or something speaks through him, when he uses the phial. Is it a spell, or channeling? It is as if Shelob is having an encounter with an elf instead of a hobbit. Why did Tolkien do this?

I frankly have no idea. I suppose the Elven feel of the Phial and its light must have woken some old memory from tales about the Elves that Sam and Frodo heard when they were young. Bilbo must have told dozens, and especially Sam adored them. Words have power and maybe the Hobbits unconciously knew what protection the words could give against the creatures of darkness? I don't know, I'm just guessing.

Now about the ending sentence of this chapter, which closes out The Two Towers: Can you imagine having to wait a YEAR to read what happens, as they did when it was being published? Compare it to those of us waiting for Year 7 of Harry Potter, I guess!

Hah, you so read my mind here. This is the very reason why I don't read books from trilogies and series until they are well and truely finished and published.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I've never understood why Tolkien even wanted Sam to have the ring (besides an interesting story line and a fight, etc.) What do you guys think? It seemed to me that this was an important point for JRRT, but I can't think why...

I think it was to show some more insights in the influence of the Ring and what temptations it offered. Sam's visions of orcs creating gardens clearly shows how good the Ring is at reading people's personailty and offering them tailor-made temptations. Only in Sam's case is this described fully, if I'm not mistaken. I suppose Tolkien also wanted to show that the Ring tempted everyone, even those who desired no power or realms, but also that its temptation could be resisted when one possessed the right 'heroic' qualities, like compassion, courage and humility.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Isn't it interesting that Orcs seem to like Sauron ("He knows a good orc when he sees one" said Grishnakh proudly) but dislike and fear the nazgul?

Interesting indeed. I suppose it is partially because the nazgul's main characteristic is inspiring fear and they dish it undiscriminately. But recalling his Annatar-period, Sauron could possibly still be charming if he wanted to, even if his appearance wasn't anymore (but then I doubt his looks would have mattered to the orcs...).