The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You did not read it....

Oh yes Olmer... I DID read it. Just uncertain about the ability of the Nazgul to really thorougly search the area of the Anduin around Gladden... AND to go to Erebor to deliver all these messages.

HOWEVER - I think it very likely when Tolkien wrote this that he DID consider the messenger to be a nazgul. I was just tossing out another possibility that occurred to me. I don't know if he really worked out all the timeframe elements for this little part of the story though... hard to say. I'll have to look into it, if & when I get the chance.

Anyway folks - we're diverging from discussion of this chapter. Azalea's intent was that the chapter in question be the focus of discussion each time - and that we refrain from going into other sources too much - so that even those who had only read LOTR would feel comfortable participating. We certainly can... and SHOULD ... get into these other things, but maybe a separate thread would be better suited.

Olmer - I strongly agree that the Elves made constant use of their rings... that's how Rivendell and Lorien were kept as they were. The only way that Sauron would have been aware of their use, and had power of it, was by recovering The One.

I disagree about the choice of who went to Rivendell from Minas Tirith. Faramir considered it his task, but Boromir wanted to go badly. Their father would rather have kept Boromir with him and sent Faramir, but gave in to Boromir's wishes. Isn't that how Faramir frames it? (and here I go... diverging! ) Do you consider Faramir, at least, to be a 'straight-shooter'?

Well... would like to say more, but my 2-year old wants to be read to (and he's not ready for LOTR... )

[inked]

Olmer, you asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by inked
It would then make sense that he would send as ambassador the son who was most like himself to achieve Denethor's goals.


What exactly was Denethor's goals in sending Boromir?


IMHO, Denethor's goals in sending Boromir were to search out any aid, especially of arms and materiels that would aid Denethor in opposing Sauron.
Since he had been utilizing the palantir, and was probably ensnared by Sauron's misdirections, there exists the probability that this was a covert Sauron "find the Ring" exertion. Denethor would have had no knowledge of the One, but it wasn't necessary for him to know; only necessary that Sauron be apprised of its approximate location.

Boromir was the better candidate as he was most like his father and Denethor could therefore better anticipate his actions and reactions. He seems to have distrusted Faramir as being insufficiently "in line" with the Denthorian modus operandi. Denethor complained of Faramir's penchant for spending time with Gandalf and had the same strength which refused the Ring when given the opportunity. As Denethor descended into the futility Sauron showed him, even in the early stages he would have developed a distaste for all who did not see through his eyes and understandings, or at least a sense that here was someone who thought differently. And it is ever the despot who dreads the innovater. The upstart in ideas may be obedient in service, but you can never be TOO certain that they won't break the mold at critical junctures. Boromir was much more reliable in that way than Faramir.

And Boromir performed the function admirably. It was only his encounter with Frodo over the Ring at Amon Hen that opened Boromir's mind and spirit to the potential danger of the Ring and of his father's limitation and his own in the matter of Gondor. Boromir repented his folly. But had he convinced them to go via Minas Tirith, I have no doubt he would have been his father's son in every respect Denethor wished.

This whole sequence of events is a meditation on "a fate worse than death" in which the penance unto death in Boromir's case saves him from a Nazgul's existence. No doubt had Boromir seized the Ring and exercised those abilities his father so prized under the Ring's and Sauron's influence, Denethor would have abruptly ended his Stewardship on the end of Boromir's sword!

So think I, at any rate.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Denethor nor Boromir knew nothing of the Ring. Forget the scene in TTT EE where Denethor know's all about it. Boromir came to Rivendell concerning only his vision, nothing else.

[inked]

So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion?

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by inked

So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion?

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family.

Which doesn't belong to the remit of this chapter. Faramir and Denethor are hardly mentioned.

Can we keep to things more relevant to what is DISCUSSED during the Council?

[inked]

pardon!

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by inked

pardon!

Well, as this is going to be a chapter by chapter discussion of LoTR, I would think that there is better evidence in forthcoming chapters for the current line of discussion.

All this "dysfunctional relationship of Denethor's family" is not even hinted at in the Council of Elrond chapter.

[Artanis]

Honour to FF for a good summary!

Bilbo is now telling the full and true story of how he came by the Ring. Is that because he is now free from the bad influence the Ring had on him? Or is it because he now has learned much more about the true nature of the Ring?

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

When Frodo has volunteered to take the Ring, Elrond names him among the Elf-friends of old: Hador, Húrin, Túrin and Beren. I have long had a grudge against Elrond because he did not mention Tuor! Why not?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

It is said that some of the Noldor of Lindon went with Cirdan to the Havens.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Artanis

When Frodo has volunteered to take the Ring, Elrond names him among the Elf-friends of old: Hador, Húrin, Túrin and Beren. I have long had a grudge against Elrond because he did not mention Tuor! Why not?

For one, could be becasue he's an elf now himself.. except that, I can't really see much reasons why not count him as an 'elf-friend'.. he was much more successful than Turin, no doubt.

And I agree with Telcontar - I think Elrond was refering to Elves, because the Elves fought and won Sauron.. and the Elves of the Heavens did take part in those wars.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Artanis

But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

Wery good question!
Considering that Cirdan don't have any power enhancement by the Ring, it must be the man-power, er.. elves-power. Which means that, according to Elrond, at the time of the War of the Rings in Lindon was enough elves-warriers to defy Sauron; if not that, what else then?.
Therefore we are coming back to the question, how dangerous for the Elves has been the whole situation with Sauron's dominion over the Middle-earth ?
Not so dangerous if they didn't bother to send any help to eradicate the prospective new ruler of the World, which shows that they did not mind having Sauron around as long as he does not try to manipulate them, the Elves, especially, the Elves with the Rings of Power. And here we come that the whole ordeal about the Ring's destruction was not exactly about saving the free folk of Middle-earth, but about prevention of Sauron to get hold on the Wise and Ageless. Fodo has been sacrified, because nobody else, even elves, couldn’t fit better for the job; the only hobbit-kind, due to their close friendship with the earth possessed the art of moving swiftly and silently and be almost invisible to others, therefore having more chances to get to the aimed point - Mount Doom.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Elrond states that "What power still remains (to defy the Enemy) lies with us, here in Imladris, or with CÃ*rdan at the Havens, or in Lórien." Elrond and Galadriel each had one of the Elven-rings, and in Imladris lived still a few of the Noldor who had come from the West. But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

Perhaps Elrond was trying to cover up that Cirdan had given his ring to Gandalf? I can imagine not too many Elves were happy with Elven lords handing old heir looms to strangers the first time they meet in the docks like Cirdan did.

[Mrs.Gimli]

Th council of Elrond is one of my favourite parts.I really enjoy the part when Borimir talks.He is so lordly
But my favourite part from that scene is when Gimli talks

[The Wizard from Milan]

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?

i think it is just the rate at which the poem is,
but the tense of the first line does give it more impact,
and in england we have a saying
"All that glitters is not gold",
i think JRRT was trying to give that line an older feel to it

ps welcome to the moot

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

My question
I am not an English native speaker, although I think I speak English fairly well.
I have always been puzzled by "All that is gold does not glitter". I think it should be "Not all that is gold does glitter", as a reference to Aragorn that does not glitter (he has no outward sign of his kingly lineage) but is gold. So why was it inverted? Is it just a matter of poetry? Or there is more to that?

Basically you think that the word "not" should be put in a different place. Personally, I think it sounds better with "not" near the end. It gives the line a more definite rhythm: ALL that is GOLD does not GLITter is more euphonious than the other way around.

I can't see any other reason than meter. The way it is stated can possibly even be misinterpreted, methinks, to form something meaning "Nothing gold glitters", so your version is probably less ambiguous.

But then again, I think the poem was aiming towards ambiguity.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Artanis

But what kind of power was there in the Havens to withstand Sauron?

Cirdan himself is one of the first elves mentioned by name in the early times of the Silmarillion, he is ancient and wise.

In addition, Sauron fears the sea...not only because Ulmo still aids the elves, but because he was once already nearly destroyed by the sea, in Numenor's downfall...One always fears what they cannot control.

And the strength of elves is not to be underrated anyways.

[Gordis]

I have just read the tread and could not resist the temptation to participate. Olmer's posts in particular are so interesting and challenging!
So I have to catch up:

I agree that the messenger to Erebor was a nazgul.

I believe that Sauron was paranoid about letting anyone but "his most trusted servants" (the nazgul) handle the ring. And for all he knew Bilbo might have been still in Erebor with the ring. (The messenger asks for the ring or any hints on it). So the messenger was certainly a nazgul. And the description of the messenger who came alone at night fits it perfectly.

I think that Olmer is right in identifying the nazgul as Khamul. Not only Dol Guldur was closer to Erebor than Barad Dur, but also the nazgul was HISSING:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It did say that the messenger had a hissing voice, which immediately makes me think of the Nazgûl.

Yes, but not all the nazgul had the hissing voice, the WK's voice for example was described only as "cold", the voice at Crickhollow was "high", the assembled nazgul at the ford ("To Mordor we will take you") were not hissing either. There was only ONE hissing nazgul who "spoke funny". It was Khamul the Easterling Lord of Dol Guldur. He came to Hobbiton and to Maggot (see UT The hunt for the ring). Most likely he was the messenger to Erebor.

Originally Posted by Olmer

If you read my posting "In defense of the Ringwraiths", you probably remember that the Nazguls spent unreasonably long time in the vales of Anduin.Now I think that all this time they used to accompany Khamul on the message delivery. .

No, I think it is not plausible. Firstly the route the nazgul took is described in detail in UT The hunt for the ring.

There is more. In UT we read: "At length they returned... and met messengers from Barad Dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay".

Why would Sauron be so angry if the nazgul went on an errand to Erebor on his orders? No, the nazgul really wasted their time in the vales of Anduin, walking their horses to Gundabad and back again. Nice 1,5 months vacations they had. So Sauron had reasons to be mad.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

If the Mouth of Sauron or anyone else tried to master the Ring, Sauron would easily know where it was and take it. He's the true master and only he can control the Ring. Maybe he'd even want someone to attempt this.

Why then didn't he send some mortal men to find the Shire? Some Dunelandings or some trusted Black Numenoreans? The former might pass for fugitives, while the latter might have posed as rangers. They would have found the Shire much more easily than the nazgul, blind in the daylight and not exactly inspiring confidence to mortals they questioned. No, Sauron was mortally afraid to let ANY MORTAL near the ring. He had to send the nazgul because he believed them to be utterly under control through their nine rings, which he held. Was he right? But that is a question for another tread.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Denethor had a very clear idea what to look for in Imladris.“He would have remembered his father need…He would have brought me a mighty gift� (Denethor, “LOTR�, book III, chapter 4 ) .

Yes, I am also sure that Denethor (a very clever and learned men) has deciphered the prophecy correctly. He has not shared his guesses with anyone, though. He has sent his most trusted son to bring him the Ring.

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]Summary

So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk.


The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo.

Then the Council begins.

There are 11 speakers in this chapter:
Bilbo
Gandalf
Frodo
Sam
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir
Aragorn
Legolas
Galdor of the Havens
Erestor
Glorfindel

And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly
Dain
the Messenger from Mordor
Isildur
Saruman
Radagast
Denethor
Barliman Butterbur
Gwaihir
the Gaffer

Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing


hey! I'm intrigued - can't remember that bit, what was the direct quote from Barliman Butterbur?? really like to know!

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Finrod Felagund]You have no idea how hard it is to Summarize 43 pages of dialogue.

Try editing summarising and subtitling a 1hr discourse on Hypnothreapy!
(its the subtitling bit that's rally the killer!)