The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Finrod Felagund]

Summary

So...this chapter has the least action of almost any other chapter in the Lord of the Rings...it is basically all talk.


The chapter begins with Frodo waking up, taking a walk with Sam and meeting up wih Gandalf and Bilbo.

Then the Council begins.

There are 11 speakers in this chapter:
Bilbo
Gandalf
Frodo
Sam
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir
Aragorn
Legolas
Galdor of the Havens
Erestor
Glorfindel

And in addition 9 more characters are quoted directly
Dain
the Messenger from Mordor
Isildur
Saruman
Radagast
Denethor
Barliman Butterbur
Gwaihir
the Gaffer

Not to mention counless characters who mentioned in detail and in passing


We begin with Gloin's recounting of Balins expedition to Moria and the subsequent loss of contact. And of Sauron's messenger asking for information about hobbits and a ring, "a little ring, the least of rings...but a trifle that Sauron fancies"

[Finrod Felagund]

Elond then recounts the history of the First age, of Numenor and its fall and of the subsequent formation of Gondor and Arnor.

The Last Alliance is spoken of, and Frodo is suprised when he realizes that Elrond was indeed present for most of the events he is speaking of.

He speaks of Isildur's claim on the ring, and its loss at the Battle of the Gladden Fields. He tells of the decline of both Arnor and Gondor.

At this point Boromir explains his errand, how he and Faramir (who is not yet called Faramir) had a dream, and how Denethor sent him to seek the answer in Rivendell.

At this point Elrond asks Frodo to bring out the ring.
Aragorn is revealed as Isildur's heir, and Boromir, suprised, is reprimanded by Bilbo's poem (All that is gold does not glitter...) for his disbelief.
And Aragorn explains how the Rangers have long protected the north from evil.

Then Bilbo's tale is told...Wholly new to some, partly new to Gloin, and familiar to others. And Frodo tells his story so far.

Then, after being questioned by both Frodo and Galdor, Gandalf tells of his search for the ring, his lulling by Saruman at the White Council, who insisted the ring was forever lost, of his search for answers and discovery of Isildur's scroll, and of the Hunt for Gollum.
Aragorn continues this tale and we hear Legolas speak for the first time, bringing the news that Gollum has escaped.

Finally we hear of Gandalf's meeting with Radagast and Saruman's betrayal, and the rescue by Gwaihir.
And of Gandalf's journey with Shadowfax to Bree, Weathertop and eventually Rivendell.

Questions are asked, whether Tom Bombadil or the Sea are options for hiding the ring. Both are shot down. Bilbo then says he will take the ring, which Elrond will not allow and finally Frodo says he will take the ring...

And Sam burst out and says Frodo must not go alone.

Elrond agrees...and appoints Sam to accompany Frodo. And the Chapter ends.

[Finrod Felagund]

You have no idea how hard it is to Summarize 43 pages of dialogue.

The fact that Tolkien could pull this chapter off at all is a testimony to his literary genius!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

We begin with Gloin's recounting of Balins expedition to Moria and the subsequent loss of contact. And of Sauron's messenger asking for information about hobbits and a ring, "a little ring, the least of rings...but a trifle that Sauron fancies"

Yes, this is VERY overloaded chapter! A lot to discuss...
So, let start an avalachie.

Since you began with Gloin's recounting, I will say some things concerning the Dwarves.

I have a very strong suspicion, that they might had been left behind the board.
But Sauron has interfered.
Precisely from him the Lonely Mountain has received the information about an upcoming Big Game.”As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this…that you should find this thief and get from him a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole”- says a messenger-nazgul, and promises a “gold mountains : “Find it and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.
Sauron did not even think, that the Dwarves will be bought on his promises. The purpose of this emissary - to include them in the game and to provoke on squabble with Elves.. The difficulty was : that it's not very easy task to pull out a dwarf from the mountain. Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place.
Finally they got it!. Dain began to toss, woke up and became agitated: what if the Elves will seize the Ring ? A nightmare! Anything, but this!
And in the Rivendell goes as an observer not anybody else, but specifically Gloin, who feels, to say the least, antipathy to elves. ”You were less tender to me!” said Gloin with a flash if his eyes, as old memories were stirred of his imprisonment in the deep places of the Elven-king’s halls”
If daddy still hides his demeanor under saccharine politeness , his son’s aversion is less concealed. At parting Gimli’s animosity breaks through. ”Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens, says he to Elrond. “ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship” - if you translate his words. However, it is lyric.

So Elrond was compelled to include the dwarf in the Company of the Ring, and he goes more as an observer from allies, rather than Frodo’s bodyguard. If events will start to develop in undesirable for Durin’s Folk way, Gimli will be obliged to interrupt the mission, even by self-sacrificion. I think it is not necessary to remind what this guy is capable of in hand-to-hand combat.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

At parting Gimli’s animosity breaks through. ”Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens, says he to Elrond. “ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship” - if you translate his words. However, it is lyric.

It was Gimli who said that, not Gloin!

Originally Posted by Olmer

So Elrond was compelled to include the dwarf in the Company of the Ring, and he goes more as an observer from allies, rather than Frodo’s bodyguard. If events will start to develop in undesirable for Durin’s Folk way, Gimli will be obliged to interrupt the mission, even by self-sacrificion. I think it is not necessary to remind what this guy is capable of in hand-to-hand combat.

I don't think Elrond was forced to include Gimli in the Fellowship. He did so IMO because it was quest that all races (known to man) were a part of. Dwarves had as much right to help defeat Sauron as Elves and Men did.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Yes, this is VERY overloaded chapter! A lot to discuss...
So, let start an avalachie.

Since you began with Gloin's recounting, I will say some things concerning the Dwarves.

I have a very strong suspicion, that they might had been left behind the board.
But Sauron has interfered.
Precisely from him the Lonely Mountain has received the information about an upcoming Big Game.”As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this…that you should find this thief and get from him a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole”- says a messenger-nazgul, and promises a “gold mountains : “Find it and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.
Sauron did not even think, that the Dwarves will be bought on his promises. The purpose of this emissary - to include them in the game and to provoke on squabble with Elves.. The difficulty was : that it's not very easy task to pull out a dwarf from the mountain. Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place.
Finally they got it!. Dain began to toss, woke up and became agitated: what if the Elves will seize the Ring ? A nightmare! Anything, but this!

I don't tihnk the Dwarves actually knew that the ring Bilbo "found" was the One Ring - and don't think they actually knew what the One Ring is. So.. why did they care if the Ring, which could worth nothing, be 'seized' by the Elves?

I don't think Elrond was so much against having a dwarf in the fellowship - he wasn't an "anti-dwarf" elf, like the Elves in Mirkwood.. or Lorien. He didn't bear a grudge against them, it seems to me, like Galadriel didn't - and probably most of the other High Elves.

[Durin1]

I think it is just another example of how people have been (wrongly) influenced by portrayals in the movies.

Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other? Gloin's comment is a result of surpressed anger during Legolas' retelling of the captivity of Gollum: that Thranduil had kept the Dwarves prisoner without adequate trial. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why would Gloin, on behalf of Dain, seek the advice and counsel of Elrond?

It is also explicitly made clear that it was desirable that each representative of the Free Peoples be involved in the Fellowship.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Why would Gloin, on behalf of Dain, seek the advice and counsel of Elrond?

Really, why? Why ,of all dwarfs, Dain sends Gloin, who had most unpleasant experience in the dealing with Elves?
It has nothing to do with the movie, because this question popped up even when I read the book for the first time. And this was quite long time ago.

I was puzzeled at the reason to send this particular couple of dwarves , which came from the Lonely Mountain under pretense that they “craving” for the “advice of Elrond", when distrust and elves-phobia sprouts from them like a fountain ?!..
And nevertheless, the Fellowship is created from representatives of different races , even if some of them hate each other.
Moreover, each and everyone in the group first of all cares of its own “ant hill” interests, and then about the ideas of the “Great Commanders“.

Originally Posted by Durin1

Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other? .

Indeed, why?
Can you answer this rhetorical question, which all nations of the world continue to ask since the dawn of human race?

[Durin1]

Although much of your posts are entertaining Olmer, to be honest, some of your "conspiracy theories" are a bit tedious. You seem to look into things that aren't even there! You make judgements on things which you cannot back up with evidence.

E.g.

You say that these "couple of dwarves" come under "pretence" to "crave" the advice of Elrond, though "mistrust and elf-phobia sprout out of them like a fountain"

I don't know.. it seems that I must have been reading a different version to LoTR than you appear to have

Apart from Gloin's comment and Gandalf's rebuke, nothing else is made of this "hatred" between Elves and Dwarves. Granted, they didn't like each other much either, but only since the days of the awakening of the Balrog in Moria is it that they really become estranged. Except in Eregion, their relationship is ever "cool".

Although it's not within the scope of the discussion of this chapter, I would like to point out Celeborn's line [paraphrased]: " it is long indeed since any of Durin's race have come to Caras Galadhon". This, in my opinion, infers that Dwarves from Moria used to have relations and trade with Lothlorien in the past - so how can they "hate" each other

However, I would agree with you that most people present in the Council have their own "interests". Aragorn's trial as Heir of Gondor, Boromir's duty to Minas Tirith etc.

[Valandil]

Olmer - when you say 'Thorin' - I think you mean 'Gloin' - right?

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... for while they had been treated poorly by the King of the Wood Elves (which we hope was somewhat patched up at the end of 'The Hobbit') - still, they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

... Нe had to send the Nazgul for 3 (!) times and methodically pound in the same place...

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree Val, the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.

I don't see why sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell was some sort of conspiracy theory. Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves, as Elrond demonstrated.

Further, it is made abundantly clear in this chapter (by Elrond) that all Free Peoples of Middle-earth are to be represented in the Fellowship - Nine Walkers against Nine Riders.

Finrod, your summary of this chapter is completely brilliant! Nice job. I really like this chapter so it was very enjoyable to read, but I can see that it would have been difficult!

[Durin1]

The good thing about the chapter is that you get to piece together much of what we are already told, such as in "The Shadow of the Past", although still not enough to satiate the appetite!

This is especially so of the account of Elrond which we only catch the butt-end of.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It makes sense to me that Dain would send a dwarf who still remained from Thorin's band... for while they had been treated poorly by the King of the Wood Elves (which we hope was somewhat patched up at the end of 'The Hobbit') - still, they had been to Rivendell before, and had been well-treated there - and received good help from Elrond.

And they'd already had dealings with Elrond.

Originally Posted by Valandil

side-note: I thought for a long time that the messenger to Erebor was a Nazgul... indeed on our first reading of LOTR, that's what any of us would think - since they would be the only black riders from Mordor we would think of.

However - I now suspect it was either the Mouth of Sauron or some other such messenger. I just don't think Sauron would have sent one of the Nazgul for this purpose... when another servant might have been more appropriate.

It did say that the messenger had a hissing voice which immediatly makes me think of the Nazgûl.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks to FF for delivering the summary, and to Olmer for getting us all started.

I don't really want to comment on the specifics of what politics may or may not have lain behind the discussions just yet. However, it's clear in this chapter that there IS politics, and that it stretches back into legend.

However, I think it's strongly suggested that the messenger wasn't a Nazgul; if it was, I think it unlikely that Dain would regard the message as having a "fair cloak" (unless he's a total Goth). There's also a strong threat in the messenger's parting words, "for the moment", applied to Dain's time being his own to spend.

Two things that relate to discussion that have been ongoing elsewhere on the board: Firstly, Elrond seems certain that there is no possibility of a "Last Alliance" type assault on Mordor. The best each race can do is return home and prepare in their own way for the onslaught, but at least each can be assured that they are not alone in opposing Sauron.

Secondly, there is the question of what to do with the Ring. A lot of detail is spent in this chapter dealing with its history, and various other chains of events that led to the present dilemma. Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.

If I was Boromir I might well have thought that this was "cheese-eating surrender monkey"-talk.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Secondly, there is the question of what to do with the Ring. A lot of detail is spent in this chapter dealing with its history, and various other chains of events that led to the present dilemma. Comparatively little is devoted to the argument against "using it ourselves": it seems to boil down simply to Elrond's and Gandalf's reluctance to take it and wield it, and their word that it will turn you evil.

I think there were so little arguements for using the Ring because it was already abundantly clear that the Ring would "corrupt" all that wore it, according to the measure of each Kind. Gollum's longevity and character are reasons enough; Isildur's failure to cast the Ring into the Fire; Bilbo's (slight) change which alarmed Gandalf more than he put on etc.

Just imagine what the Ring would have done to powerful beings such as Elrond and Gandalf? Note: Galadriel's "in place of a Dark Lord you would set up a Queen" speech later in the story.

In terms of what to do with it, Gandalf et al already knew that Sauron was mustering a great army which would have cut through the South so it was imperative that something was done straight away. As is said, it would have only delayed the inevitable if they were to try and hide the Ring.

[The Gaffer]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.

I actually agree partly with you on this Gaffer. I remember one of my first (naive) readings of LoTR when I was young(er) and I thought to myself: But WHY don't they TRY and use it!!! I always thought that Boromir had a valid point and was probably just airing what others must have been thinking. However, ultimately it was this "desire" to do good that led to Boromir's downfall. I think that Elrond and Gandalf try to emphasise this by pointing out to Boromir that in order to weild an evil Ring, you would have to (or eventually would anyway) become evil. IMO this is made clear during the Council, but as I said, it is the first seeds of Boromir's "desire" that he continues to push the point.

But I think that was the whole point of Elrond's lengthy preamble: to describe the reasons why Rings of Power were made and, more pertinently, why the One Ring was made. Another point though is that the Ring was more perilous to more "powerful" beings. They may have been able to master it but the effects would have been nearly or as devastating as if Sauron held the Ring: Remember that we are told that the Ring was made soley for the purpose of bringing together the other Great Rings "One Ring to rule them all...." etc.. This is one of the reasons why Gandalf quotes these lines in the tongue of Mordor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Just to clarify, I didn't mean from our (the reader's) perspective, but from, say Boromir's, who hadn't had the benefit of reading Chapter 2!

Knowing nothing about magic rings, it would seem logical that a more powerful person would have a better chance of mastering it. I don't think an adequate explanation was given to counter that view, particularly given that Boromir expressed it openly.

But why would a man of Gondor be so drawn to a thing made by Sauron? He had known no great detail of the Ring before that and all of a sudden wanted to use something of Saurons. Why?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But why would a man of Gondor be so drawn to a thing made by Sauron? He had known no great detail of the Ring before that and all of a sudden wanted to use something of Saurons. Why?

I'd guess that logically - if it's Suaron's weapon, it's strong; and therefore can help Boromir to destroy Suaron himself, not thinking that a weapon, or a Ring, can be evil.