LOTR DP: The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

[Valandil]

Forkbeard - great answers!

I would not have thought of Boromir blowing his horn for the last time being connected with Theoden blowing the horn here, but a very interesting parallel.

BTW - when I ask if Merry was the only one who didn't recognize Dernhelm for Eowyn - I really meant of those within Elfhelm's company.

[Serenoli]

5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

Eomer perhaps doubted his siter's ability in the fierce battle, and did not think she could have survived. And he had just seen Theoden die, so maybe he was a bit desperate, and accepted that she was dead without checking.

[Forkbeard]

[QUOTE=Valandil]The Ride of the Rohirrim and The Battle of Pelennor Fields


The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
1. Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?

HMMM. In both, Gandalf is preventing the passage of an enemy. But there the similarity ends. In Moria, they are trying to escape, in Minas Tirith they are trying to prevent invasion and being overrun. In Moria, the confrontation is more intense and both fall. In MT, they are just beginning to ramp up the tension when both are taken away by other calls on the battlefield. I think we readers are meant to note these similarities and differences though....

2. Note the Nazgul’s cry of hatred as his mace fell and broke Eowyn’s shield. Normal Nazgul cry – like the Hobbits have heard since they were in the Shire? A spell?

More likely just the intimidating sounds one makes in battle.

3. Who killed the Lord of the Nazgul – Merry or Eowyn?

Both. I would have once argued for Merry as being the more important. But I changed my mind after some reconsideration. The scene is modeled on the scene in Beowulf where Beowulf and Wiglaf kill the dragon. Wiglaf cowers in fear, as Beowulf is burned and severely wounded. Wiglaf for love of his lord recovers his senses and comes up and stabs the dragon down low in the belly, and then Beo deals the final blow, if I recall on the head though I wouldn't swear to the last detail and am too lazy at the moment to check. But the parallels there are obvious and it is apparent that both Beo and Wiglaf were instrumental in the slaying of the dragon. Likewise, I think Tolkien is saying the same thing.


4. Comment on the ‘Warrior Culture’ of the Rohirrim – in particular with the words spoken as they go into battle, and the final words of Theoden to both Merry and Eomer, as well as Eomer’s response.

These are the Northmen. I could talk about the heroic ethos or "warrior culture" til doomsday: but the Rohirrim are the Tolkien world's Beowulf's and Njal's and Eric Bloodaxe: in them we meet a fictionalization of the Germanic warriors we meet especially in Old English and Old Norse texts.

5. Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

A) Theoden was dead B) no one had ever battled the Witch King before and lived C) she lay as though dead and barely breathed, little enough that only the "mirror" test gave sufficient proof that she was alive. But to the first and second glances, she lie as though dead and looked dead. Hence Eomer's reaction. Imrahil was more experienced and older: Eomer is one of the good guys but he is young and brash. Note also that the other men of Rohan also assume that she is dead.

6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

Unknown for certain. I find it unlikely that an orc would be given such a position. I find it equally unlikely that a Nazgul would be this lieutenant. The one thing that gets me is the name....it doesn't fit any of the Nazgul or Men, even Tolkien himself was confused about the other Gothmog in the Sim, a Balrog who commanded Morgoth's army and was almost equal to Sauron. So this Gothmog seems a hold over and imitation of that one, and I find that in that case it is unlikely to be a Nazgul. Balrog is to Sauron and Morgoth as Black Numenorean is to Nazgul. Or so I think at the moment.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

[6. Who / what was Gothmog – the lieutenant of Morgul: Man, Orc, Nazgul, Other?

The one thing that gets me is the name....it doesn't fit any of the Nazgul or Men, even Tolkien himself was confused about the other Gothmog in the Sim, a Balrog who commanded Morgoth's army and was almost equal to Sauron. So this Gothmog seems a hold over and imitation of that one, and I find that in that case it is unlikely to be a Nazgul. Balrog is to Sauron and Morgoth as Black Numenorean is to Nazgul. Or so I think at the moment.

IMHO "Gothmog" is hardly a name a loving mom and dad would give their newborn child.

Suppose Gothmog II was a mortal Man. Even if the parents were late Third Age Black Numenoreans - Morgoth worshippers, the name is too lofty for even a very noble Black Numenorean child. As Forkbeard points out, Gothmog the First had been almost equal (and maybe equal?) to Sauron. Who knows if the two Maiar, Morgoth's lieutenants, were on good terms back in the First age? The parents wouldn't risk the Dark Lord's displeasure naming their child after such a high being.

Suppose Gothmog II was a nazgul. The parents would be mid-Second Age Men, at the time when very few, or none of the Numenoreans worshipped Morgoth. The ME "barbarian" natives often did, it seems, but I am not sure that the "barbarians" would have enough knowledge of old lore to know about Gothmog I.

So, most likely, it was NOT a name received at birth. IMHO Gothmog II earned his name as a reward by his long service to the Dark Lord. And that more likely makes him a nazgul, than one of the mortal servants.

As for the nazgul names, we know but one - Khamul, the Shadow of the East.
But I have a suspicion, that Khamul actually translates as "Eastern Shadow" "Kha-" like in "Khand" meaning "East" . If I am right, than it must be the name that Khamul got while he was already a nazgul, not his birth-name.

Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar

So, I think, the name itself gives us few clues, only shows the wielder's high status, which we know already, as he was second in command in the Mordorian army.

Though, of course, it doesn't fit somehow that one of the cold nazgul would be named after a fiery Barlog... Hmm...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

IMHO "Gothmog" is hardly a name a loving mom and dad would give their newborn child.

LOL!

Very probably all of the nazgul in the course of their very long lives got many names, much like Olorin-Mithrandir-Gandalf-Incanus, or Aragorn-Strider-Thorongil-Elessar

Yes, I imagine that's the case. Oh, those multiple names!

[Earniel]

I arrive overly later at the party, but I've promised myself I'd finish the chapter discussion, years after date if I must.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Why did Elfhelm allow Eowyn and Merry to travel with his company? Did he only know about Merry, and think that Eowyn was indeed ‘Dernhelm’ – perhaps a lone rider from a distant part of the land? Or did he know both about Merry and about Eowyn?

I guess we'll never quite pin down why Elfhelm let Eowyn join. The text said Merry thought there seemed to be some agreement between the two, so I can't quite imagine Elfhelm not recognizing Eowyn for who she was.

She must have said something to convince him to let her come. I doubt Eowyn would have pulled rank on him, all he then would have to do is inform Theoden or Eomer of her presence. The fact that he didn't seem to imply indeed some agreement on his part. Would he have let her come strictly on the basis of her martial skills? Perhaps out of pity, because her death-wish must have been obvious to anyone if Merry could pick it up too. Plenty of room for speculation.

Was Merry the ONLY one who didn’t realize that Dernhelm was really Eowyn?

I doubt the entire Eored knew. Perhaps of Merry, since he would be hard to miss. But Eowyn's presence may have been known only to a few. She kept to herself and she could have passed easily for a young warrior.

What do you think about the situation of Ghan-buri-Ghan’s people? They were apparently hunted down by men of Rohan and/or Gondor – but they were willing to ally with them against the forces of Mordor. Sort of a “My enemy’s enemy is my ally” pragmatism. But why would they have more hatred for a new foe than the ones who had pursued them for so long?

I suppose the opportunity of the moment also had a role to play. Here was Theoden, 'father of the horselords', right in Druadan Forest, approachable and reachable. Ghan-buri-Ghan may never have had a better opportunity to make his wishes and the plight of his people known to the 'highest authority' of Rohan.

It can also be possible that the dark years Ghan-buri-Ghan and his people remembered were far worse than the recent, possibly sporadic hunting by the rohirrim. The rohirrim would then be the lesser of two evils.

The rohirrim were also in need of help, Ghan-buri-Ghan would have had less trouble to reason with them than with the orcs and forces of Mordor that had come as an invading force.

How did those people of the Druadin Forest both survive and stay separate all those many years, so close to Gondor’s chief city?

Druadan Forest seems quite large on its own, so avoiding detection would be relatively easy, especially when it's about a people that are so attuned to forest life. And it still lies at a considerable distance from Minas Tirith, I'd be tempted to say Osgiliath even would have been closer than Minas Tirith. The people of the city obviously didn't have to go as far as Druadan Forest. The only thing of interest there would be the trade-road and the beacons, which the woses would naturally avoid. Although I suppose rumours and legends about the inhabiting wood sprites may have kept adventurers away from it as well.

Now that it has just ended, how is Gandalf’s confrontation with the Lord of the Nazgul at the Gate of Minas Tirith like/unlike his earlier confrontation with the Balrog of Moria?

In the confrontation with the Balrog, neither could back down. The Balrog couldn't back down because he was on his own turf and up to this point he had the advantage. Gandalf couldn't back down and risk the capture of the Fellowship.

In the confrontation at the gate of Minas Tirith, the idea that a confrontation is inevitable is less present. Before a first blow between the two is delivered, the Witch-King is called away by the sound of horns and Gandalf is needed at Denethor's barbecue. Neither had at that moment the time to press their point.

Any comments on Eomer’s reaction to seeing Eowyn? Why did he assume she was dead, instead of checking, like Prince Imrahil would do?

I'd cite cultural differences. The Gondoreans had retained some of the Numenorean lore and seemed more learned in matters of healing. They also had had dealings with nazgul before and may therefore have been more aware of the possible side-effects of fighting the Witch-King. Imrahil, having claim to some Elven inheritage, may also have been more perceptable to little clues of life than Eomer who had already spent quite while in battle.