Passing of the Grey Company + Muster of Rohan

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

But, I still wonder what their conversation was like. Did Sauron ask questions, did he cajole or use threats? And what DID Aragorn say? And why didn't Tolkien write that scene, it must have been very exciting, yet he leaves only hints... do you think he found it too hard to decide exactly how it should go... or was it because actually seeing the Dark Lord worsted in verbal combat would dispel the air of mystery and fear that surrounds him in the rest of the book?

I think that is the case, Serenoli. I think any conversation rendered in actual words would spoil the image of mysterious power and terror that is associated with the Dark Lord.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

... But back on topic, I always wondered what he was doing there, at that locked door and what had been behind it. The treasury of the dead? And of what did he die and why did he make no attempt to turn around, instead dying on the threshold, after having beaten with sword on the door? Curious indeed.

I suspect that the unfortunate adventurer became disoriented - most likely by trickery of the dead. I think he thought he was trying to get out, that his only escape lay through that door - when ironically the way out was to turn around and head the other way - unimpeded. Just the sort of joke I think the Dead Men of Dunharrow would like to play on a trespasser.

[Butterbeer]

5) Oddities and Questions

... coming soon

so... rather like a wine that likes to age ... blow off de cobwebs ... and here come the oddities and thoughts and questions on this chapter ...

Why grey? (as in grey company)

Is this a metaphor for the twilight on many levels between the living an dead, and the living that may yet be on the road to either living or dead, or worse? Is it the uncertainty of their path or merely that either Black or white were already used and anyway had no descriptive emotion?

What resonance does JRR aim to put into 'the passing of' the grey company?

Personally i always thought there was more in the naming of the Chapter than mere musings...


This whole chapter is pivotally based on the History of the Numenorean and their Arnorien and Gondorean heirs (rightful or not) ..

Is it possible we could have this chapter without the Black stone of Erech?

And what do we read into the this tone and or the powers of the Line of Elendil to curse a whole prople years beyond count?

Is indeed this curse of all the people, 'the oath-breakers' any better or worse than the wholesale destruction of babies, children and women of Numenor?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

5) Oddities and Questions



so... rather like a wine that likes to age ...

or a ripe stilton, blue-veined as your granny's waps, redolent of jakey's sock. But not nearly as cheesy.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Is it possible we could have this chapter without the Black stone of Erech?

And what do we read into the this tone and or the powers of the Line of Elendil to curse a whole prople years beyond count?

Is indeed this curse of all the people, 'the oath-breakers' any better or worse than the wholesale destruction of babies, children and women of Numenor?

Much worse. At least the properly dead get to wake up for the great chorus at the end of time. The improperly dead have to hang around for centuries with nowt but the occasional pissed Rohirrim for company.

Again, the power of oaths in M-E. Elrond was right to warn against hasty oath-making. It will get you. But also, of course, a lovely plot device to tie in with the ancient history and the ultimate defeat of Sauron.

It is hard to see how this chapter could exist without Aragorn knowing of the curse and the rallying point of Erech. He would only have taken the Paths if he'd seen the Black Fleet in the Stone and been reminded of the words of the Seer.

[Butterbeer]

I agree. The whole chapter would be impossible without the curse.

What power had the Kings to create such a curse? Gordis and Crazy Squirrel debated i think somewhere about the sorcerous side to the line of Numenor ... but is it more as the Gaffer hints above, that we see in this chapter, JRR's creating a mythology for the middle earth where indeed no oath should be taken lightly and that thus the power of an oath has a power in itself - is it thus that as they broke their oath not to aid Elendil / Isuldur, thus this was the power or invocation that allowed the Heirs of Numenor to curse a whole people?

What of the oath they also broke to Sauron? For they, affraid of the wrath of Elendil / Ilsudir broke that too, being too affraid to aid him! Was this also a factor in the power of the curse laid on them?


.........................................


any thoughts on the symbolism on the coming of Arargorn in the dark and grey out of the north being labelled 'the King of the dead'?

'the king of the dead is coming ...' ... do you think, perhaps this brought a wry smile to Tolkien's lips and a twinkle to his eye?