Fantasy

[frodosampippinmerry]

Tolken wrote on fairy stories, but did he ever distiguish fantasy from fairy stories? What did he think of Narnia and the wood between the worlds and the fairy ring teleportation system?

[Varnafindë]

He didn't think Lewis did a good job with Narnia - too little consistency, too much mixing of incompatible elements, I think. He said to Lewis, "It won't do, you know."

I don't know whether he had any particular opinion on the pools in the wood between the worlds (if those are what you mean by the fairy ring teleportation system ).

[Earniel]

Moved thread to Fantasy and Sci-Fi novels. (Not a perfect fit, but it doesn't belong in GM)

[GrayMouser]

Well, in "On Fairy-stories" he doesn't seem to distinguish between the two, except in saying that while Fantasy can be found in other forms, it is the essence of fairy-stores.

I think this ties in with your other post on "That Hideous Strength". Tolkien seemed to have liked his Secondary Worlds very clearly cut off and self-contained; he didn't like the idea of much back-and-forth between the two.

One reason for this, I think, is that it is very difficult to juxtapose our modern world and the Faery realm without some elements of satire and/or irony raising their head.

Think of Jadis, a great and terrible figure in Charn; a powerful and dangerous witch in Narnia, but a figure of fun in modern (well, 1890s) London.

[hectorberlioz]

I get the feeling, although there is little or next to no evidence for this, that Tolkien didn't read the Narnia books all the way through. He read early version of LWW, and was very discouraging about it to Lewis. However, when CSL took the book to his friend Roger Lancelyn Green (also a children's books author), he said it was great and encouraged Lewis to keep on.

By the way, the "it won't do, you know" comment by JRRT is connected to a very specific moment in LWW: the titles of the books on Mr. Tumnus' bookshelf.

If you want to read the best (and I've read enough to know) account of how the Inklings (esp JRRT and CSL) worked together, read "The Company They Keep" by Diana Glyer. She really overturns some of the cliches. It's a great book, well written, with lots of awesome extra stuff, like JRRT's poem in Anglo-Saxon, written in praise of the Inklings. And you'd be surprised how deeply involved CSL was in the expansion of Middle-earth!

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

By the way, the "it won't do, you know" comment by JRRT is connected to a very specific moment in LWW: the titles of the books on Mr. Tumnus' bookshelf.

Which I think backs up this:
GrayMouser said

One reason for this, I think, is that it is very difficult to juxtapose our modern world and the Faery realm without some elements of satire and/or irony raising their head.

the titles were:

"...titles like The Life and Letters of Silenus or Nymphs and Their Ways or Men, Monks, and Gamekeepers; a Study in Popular Legend or Is Man a Myth?"

and also refer back to Tumnus's musing on "the far land of Spare Oom where eternal summer reigns around the bright city of War Drobe."

very twee, very arch- something which Tolkien himself engaged in in "The Hobbits" with its authorial asides, but which had vanished by the time of the publication of LOTR.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

very twee, very arch- something which Tolkien himself engaged in in "The Hobbits" with its authorial asides, but which had vanished by the time of the publication of LOTR.

Quite, quite. Though with Narnia, as with The Hobbit, the stories never rely on the "twee" elements to augment the book. And the titles of Tumnus' books, I argue, are actually dealy serious--for him. It's an indication that man IS a myth in Narnia, and even mythic.

[inked]

HECTOR

du ist alive!

I am delighted.

You are quite correct above. Tolkien's "it won't do" was secondary to his advance beyond that from the Hobbit.

[hectorberlioz]

Inked! Ja! Great to see you're still roaring, although less around here.

By the way, I'm halfway through Lewis' "English Literature in the Sixteenth Century." A grete boke yndeede, and one by which I've learned much. Scattered throughought are some Narnian hints, though, lot least of which was a subtle dig at JRRT for his rebuke regarding putting Father Christmas in LWW. However, you will have to read the book to find it for yourselves

[inked]

Ja und Ja.