Peasant uprisings in fantasy

[Vidugavia]

In a discussion with some friends we discovered that something is missing in the fantasy novels in our knowledge. As we have very little sympathy for real feudal lords it would be nice to have some knights in shining armor pierced with pitch forks. Peasant rebellions was rather common in many historical societies but I can't recall any fantasy novels that include them in the story.

I would like to know if there is any at all. I want wizards, dragons and peasants with noble blood on their hands. Can anyone help me?

[Draken]

Very good question. Funny isn't it; fantasy novels are essentially based in a version of the past, yet authors seem hard-pressed to envisage internal dissent. Monarchy (which we know from history can throw up as many bloodthirsty nutters as "just and fair kings") seems to be assumed to act with the support of the population. Just and fair kings rule just and fair populations: evil emperors reflect the expansionist bloodlust of their evil populace. Rebellions are almost always against an external occupying force, not against the indigenous ruling class.

Sci fi, by comparison, finds it hard to look to a version of the future without envisaging someone rebelling against whatever system is in place.

If you find a fantasy novel about peasant rebellion let me know, it would make a refreshing change! The best I can think of is a sci fi (of course) short called "Divide & Rule" by L Sprague de Camp, where a race of aliens re-introduce sword-and-armour feudalism to, well, divide and rule the world. The aristocratic classes get the benefits and so need rebelling against by the lower classes, but ultimately of course the real enemy are the aliens so it's not a true class war. Best I can come up with, though.

[GrayMouser]

Good point! This ties into a post I made a few days ago on the Lewis Tolkien vs Pulllman thread concerning the origins of High/Heroic Fantasy.

quoting myself

The German Romantics were a reaction to the Enlightenment, and under the influence of Coleridge in particular, that led to one school of Romanticism- conservative, Christian, often Catholic or Anglo-Catholic, medievalist, monarchist, anti-democratic, reactionary- not only The Return of the King, but 4 out of the 7 Narnia books are about restoring a King (or Kings and Queens), while the Magician's Nephew deals with establishing the first king ( it's made clear that those silly Animals are not fit to rule themselves).

"Begging your pardon, Mr. Frodo, sir..."

Tolkien himself said 'Touching your cap to the Squire may be damn bad for the Squire, but it's damn good for you', a totally pernicious sentiment.



Science Fiction, OTOH, is basically a child of the Enlightenment- the belief in reason, equality, democracy

Couple of essays by David Brin (they're from Salon, so you might have to click through an ad for the Economist)

On Tolkien
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/f...7/tolkien_brin


Star Wars vs. Star Trek
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/m...6/15/brin_main

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Dude, this guy is even less critical of the Enlightenment than Tolkien is of the Eldar.

[GrayMouser]

Well, he is making an argument...and he does give the Prof some props....

[GrayMouser]

As far as uprisings go, how about the Dwarfs in "The Last Battle"? They're workers, not peasants- miners, of course - but after fighting against the Calormenes they refuse to fight for the restoration of the rightful monarch and are unwilling to return to their appointed subordinate place in the hierarchy of God, King and Country (Aslan, Tirian, Narnia).

Lewis, of course, thinks this is a Bad Thing. The Dwarfs are being selfish, thinking only of themselves, unlike the King and his supporters, who are trying to restore the Good Life for everyone- that a restoration puts them back in charge in no way represents any self-interest on their part.

I've gone on at great length in the Lewis thread to show this represents the traditional conservative* view of a place for everyone, and everyone in their place, as in that great old Anglican hymn "All Things Bright and Beautiful":

"The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate
[God] made them high and lowly
He created their estate."

In fact, I believe that not only was this Lewis's blast at the working classes seduction by the siren call of godless socialism, it was also specifically directed- dare I say an allegory?-at the Labour government elected in 1945 ( as of course was the Scouring of the Shire).

*traditional feudal/landowner conservatism, not the modern Reagan/Thatcher type, which is a branch of liberalism.

[GrayMouser]

Looking at the "threads" list, saw this blast from the past:

"Athiests and Fantasy " OP guess who?
http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?p=657958#post657958

in which I posted those exact same two links to David Brin

stuck in a rut much

[Vidugavia]

Many fantasy writers seem to be anti-modernists and rather anti-egalitarian. They are either conservative traditionalists like Tolkien or nietzschean individualists like Howard. Neither of these two categories of writers have any real interest in change made made by "small" people in collective action. Especially if this action has more or less egalitarian goals.

"Surrender None" by Elisabeth Moon seems to be about a peasant rebellion. I will by it soon.
http://www.elizabethmoon.com/books-p...html#surrender

[GrayMouser]

Interesting background... she was a Marine Corps officer way back in 1968.
Nebula Award Winner, always a good sign.

Have you read any of her other stuff? Just checking out reviews, the "Gird" series is a prequel to her Paksennarion series- the general consensus seems to be that the Pak series was better.

[Vidugavia]

I read her three Paksennarion books in high school, 10 years ago. They were rather good in mixing a down to earth perspective with epic adventure. Her military language was a bit to modern and some of the suffering described was to graphic for my taste but, apart from that, the books are good.

Moon isn't a gamer herself but the influences from Dungeons and Dragons are pretty obvious, in a good way.