Wheel of Time discussions

[Wayfarer]

Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block, but Cadsuane has hers because she's lived for an unbelievable amount of time for an Aes Sedai who, we assume, is still bound to the Oath Rod, and because she's WORKED for her authority for years and years. Channelers with more strength than her hop to it when she's around. With Rand they just do every little thing they can to annoy him.

Hmm. Note that:

A) Aes Sedai don't work for their authority. They just assume that they deserve to have whatever they want. I can't think of a single example of someone who gets respect as an Aes Sedai due to their hard work. It's pretty clear that the pecking order around the Aes Sedai has never been a meritocracy - it's a bunch of bullies throwing their weight around.

B) Cadsuane is repeatedly referred to as a reference point when comparing some other woman that's "Strong in the Power". I.E. If I remember correctly, Moraine and Siuan were extraordinary because they were the first recruits in hundreds of years that could approach Cadsuane's power, and Elayne, Egwyn, Aviendha, and co, are all really speshul because they're even more powerful. So... no, the only Aes Sedai stronger than Cadsuane are pretty much the 'OMG SUPAR POWERFUL' new discoveries who haven't had full training yet - and thus, aren't really considered a match for her.

C) The difference between how the Aes Sedai treat Rand versus how they treat Cadsuane really doesn't have anything to do with who's more qualified to have their respect - it has everything to do with the fact that Robert Jordan is pretty much unable to write a character who isn't an arrogant sod, and that the Aes Sedai automatically feel contempt for anyone who isn't Aes Sedai, while at the same time have an ingrained compulsion to brown-nose any Aes Sedai of higher status than them.

D) That Cadsuane has no fear of Male Channelers says less about her strength of character than it does about the weakness of the Aes Sedai as a whole. Notice how they're just a little insecure about ANYONE or ANYTHING that impinges on their ability to pretend they're superior to ... well, existance: Male Channelers? EVIL! Aiel Wise Ones? Wilders! Bad! Seafolk Windfinders? Must Be Trained In Our Ways! Kinswomen? Traitors! Heritics! Unworthy! Seanchan Sul'dam? *whimper*

So, Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block. Cadsuane has her authority not only because she held that title for centuries, but becuase she's still the biggest bully on the block that belongs to the 'cool kids' clique and went through proper channels to get there. Big difference.

But seriously, folks. Tessar brings up the second reason why Robert Jordan's writings are firmly entrenched in the status of Lame Mediocrity. Every other character has to be 'the best thing since sliced bread', in a constant game of one-upmanship. Every character has to be the best at something (or perferably, the best at everything), and then in order to provide interest he has to come up with even more powerful characters, or give existing characters a power up.

And of course there's the annoying fact that, with a few notable exceptions, all this power comes free of charge with no limitations. What's the point of the Forsaken having sold their souls and all of that if random people from the backwoods come along that are more powerful than they are?

[Beren3000]

Wayfarer,
I seriously can't understand your bleak outlook on RJ's characters! How can you say that they're "two-dimensional" and "bland"? I mean Rand is a very well-rounded character, IMO and Nynaeve and Min, etc... It's not all about power plays or "one-upmanship" as you put it. Each character has his/her own motivations and history and the main characters even more so than any other.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

the one thing that probably bugs me the most is how you can't help but think that if the "good" people just relaxed for a moment and actually trusted one another they'd all figure out that they are in it together

I know what you're saying! I've always thought that this would make things much easier! However, I think that such power struggles (and this counts as an answer to your arguments, too, Wayfarer) are justified in RJ's world. Look at the Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai: it's just a simplified version of the Taoist yin-yang symbol. According to the yin-yang concept, the world is all about opposites: good and evil, light and dark, man and woman, etc...
The relationship between these opposites is symbolised by the yin-yang. One of the halves is called "male" and the other "female". The belief is, harmony and peace can only take place through the continuous struggle and eventual evening out of these opposites. Along these lines, it only seems probable that "the male half" in RJ's world would be in continuous struggle with "the female half".
P.S. All this information about the yin-yang is recollection from a past reading. If someone else is more knowledgable on the subject, please correct me!

[Pytt]

Last night I finaly met this Cadsuane. And I don't know what I think of her. My first impression of her is that Rand have a worthy opponent. But, I don't know how this will work out, but I'll guess I know in a few pages or so
I kind of like her, something in the way she acts, but I'm mainly on Rand's side, and I can hardly imagine Cadsuane to be someone like Moiraine for example, who he trusts.

I don't know, really what I think about RJ's characters. Wayfarer I think put it a bit harsh. The characters are a bit more complex than that. But it looks like everyone has to be 'bad' in some way. Loial, as said before, I find as almost the only truly good person in the books so far. And Moiraine.

But I've to read more!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

I know what you're saying! I've always thought that this would make things much easier! However, I think that such power struggles (and this counts as an answer to your arguments, too, Wayfarer) are justified in RJ's world. Look at the Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai: it's just a simplified version of the Taoist yin-yang symbol. According to the yin-yang concept, the world is all about opposites: good and evil, light and dark, man and woman, etc...

i agree... it is one way to approach a story... if the story did not continue to get more and more and more dragged out, i'd probably be willing to take it for what it is... i dropped "crossroads" halfway in... but when (if ) the series is complete... i'll pick up from there and read the rest

[Wayfarer]

Hey now. It's not RJ's characters I have a bleak outlook on.

Sure, they're are all made from the same mold, and basically identical, and certainly most of them are blatant stereotypes, but the main characters at least can be interesting when given the proper attention (which not all the books do).

No, what I said was that everything Robert Jordan writes is self serving, two-dimensional, bland, repetitive, sex/power fantasy... and so forth. It's the plot, the writing, the whole

I don't know how to adequately describe it. It's like a self-insertion written by a moderately literate but acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family, who is compensating for his complete and utter social ineptitude by portraying a caricature of human interaction which he learned from watching a combination of late-night action movies and daytime television.

Yeah. Something like that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

And of course there's the annoying fact that, with a few notable exceptions, all this power comes free of charge with no limitations. What's the point of the Forsaken having sold their souls and all of that if random people from the backwoods come along that are more powerful than they are?

I don't know about you, but I haven't encountered anyone more powerful then Forsaken except Rand Al'Thor. He definitely is not a random person. He is the Dragon Reborn :P. Whenever somebody else defeats one of the Forsaken, it generally is because of having very good luck. Nynaeve also is up there, but she doesn't have anything near the skill of the Forsaken, so I still consider her success simply good luck.

You know Wayfarer, there are several aspects of RJ's writing that you don't mention, but which I feel I ought to bring up. We here are focusing on discussing those aspects of his writing that could or should be better. I wish I could see improvement in his character development (in a different series; it's too late for the characters of this one), in his plot focuses, and in maintaining brevity. However, I greatly enjoy his books for:
1) Rand . Virtually the only character I like.
2) Action sequences.
3) The depth and complexity of the world RJ has developed.
4) Skillful writing style.

One cannot to me deny the skill of his writing, the ability to make what he imagines real. There is nothing lame in his ability to write. His ability to write action sequences is definitely great, and the complexity of his world is amazing. There is a vast history he has created to this world, a complex and well thought-out magical system, and numerous cultures. Thought has been put into even details of these different cultures. Things like appearance, custom, ways of speaking have all been thought out in depth. Most writers are way below Robert Jordan in their ability to invent so much. Rand Al'Thor to me makes the story. None of the plotlines are as interesting as his, and he is the one that keeps me reading. I've already spoken my views on Rand earlier on in this thread. Robert Jordan's writing style, interesting (normally) plotlines, his splendily written action scenes and his amazing world I believe are the wonderful aspects of his writing. Possibly there is more that I have skipped. His errors many of you have pointed out, and I agree about many of those points. I just disagree with anyone who objects to Rand . And I like the books .

[Wayfarer]

Little argument there. Hey, I haven't blacklisted him, so obviously I don't think his writing is unsalvagable. The core of the story itself is still good.

However, everything I said is still true.

It's like a self-insertion written by a moderately literate but acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family, who is compensating for his complete and utter social ineptitude by portraying a caricature of human interaction which he learned from watching a combination of late-night action movies and daytime television.

[Tessar]

Wayfarer you're closer to being an "acne-challenged teenage boy from an abusive family" than R.J. is .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Little argument there. Hey, I haven't blacklisted him, so obviously I don't think his writing is unsalvagable. The core of the story itself is still good.

However, everything I said is still true.

I agreed with almost all of your post. Only the last paragraph I really didn't agree with (though beating Forsaken by luck is pretty lame), and the second to last I question. How do you define "power"? If you're only talking about the magical power, I will debate. If you broaden your definition to include political power, then I may have to agree .

I definitely agree about the Aes Sedai and Cadsuane, by the way.

By the way, Wayfarer, what are you doing reading these books anyway? You got pretty far on them before putting them down, if you've put them down, I must say .

[Wayfarer]

By the way, Wayfarer, what are you doing reading these books anyway? You got pretty far on them before putting them down, if you've put them down, I must say .

Yeah. I finally stopped reading just before Knife of Dreams.

I agreed with almost all of your post. Only the last paragraph I really didn't agree with (though beating Forsaken by luck is pretty lame), and the second to last I question. How do you define "power"? If you're only talking about the magical power, I will debate. If you broaden your definition to include political power, then I may have to agree .

Just power. And that's not even the right word, Id on't think.

Take Rand, for instance. Being the main character and the Dragon Reborn, he can probably be forgiven, but he is: The Most Powerful Channeler Ever, A Master Swordsman and Archer, a Natural Politician, Impressively Shrewd, and Able to Sexually Satisfy the needs of Three Seperate Women. At Once. At Their Request. The Kingships, Lordships, and Titles are just icing.

Okay. Then: Perrin is Big, Strong, Smart, Handsome, Skilled, Able to Talk to Wolves, Able to Enter Dreams, and a Master Axeman. Oh. And He's a Lord with a beautiful wife. Matt is Quick-witted, Handsome, Fantastically Lucky, with the Knowledge of Every Military Leader in History, Immunity To Sai'dar, and his own army. Incidentally, he's going to marry the princess of what is quite possibly the most powerful nation on his planet.

Okay. So. Accepting that those are the main characters, and have the right to be freaky scary... and skipping over the Forsaken because they need to challenge those three somehow...

Egwyn, Elayne, and Nynaeve all seem to be uncannily strong in the force, or whatever, able to become Amirlyn (even over only half the Aes Sedai), Queen, or whatever, or able to Capture and Imprison one of the Forsaken for a time. Oh, just in passing it should be mentioned that they've rediscovered the art of crafting Ter'Angreal, which has been lost for millenia, and have learned numerous other techniques (dreamwalking, teleportation, and so on) that have likewise been lost for ages.

The Wise Ones, Sea Folk, and the Sul'Dam all have members that match or exceed those three in power. You may recall a certain instance in a certain book where a certain channeler from a certain invading country faces down a certain Forsaken Ex-Girlfriend of Lews Therins. And wins. That's pretty powerful, if you ask me.

Then you've got a list of characters that's pages long, and every one of them seems to be a Powerful Channeler, or a Master Warrior, or a Leading Noble... I'm sure you get the point. What I mean isn't nescessarily 'the one power' as much as 'character overpowered'.


------

The single biggest flaw Robert Jordan has, of course, is what I look at as an inability to write a good, clean narrative. It just drags on and on, going from one thing to another to another. If he'd just stick to the story instead of spending ten pages detailing the petty concerns of every two-bit character that appears in the story it would be a lot better.

Like you said: The story is about Rand. Yet in some of the novels the action follows him for only a slim fraction of the time. The worst offender by far, I think, was Crossroads of Twilight, which seemed to ignore Rand entirely so that it could go back and examine the last few hours in the lives of 30 different characters. That's pretty lame.

Edit: Of course this isn't a malady from which he suffers alone. It seems to be more and more common among novelists these days - and that's not a good thing, since more isn't nescessarily better. Heh. Look at how verbose my posting is.

[Pytt]

But Wayfarer, don't you think those you are listing up should have some special abilities? They are the main characters. Maybe they have a bit much powers all of them, but I think that makes it exiting.

And why is the last poster in the thread Lief?

[Wayfarer]

*Sigh* That's the problem with the reading public today. They don't understand the difference between being an interesting and engaging character and having nifty powers.

Ask yourself this: Which makes a better story, the parts where Rand is flinging balefire around left and right, laying all to ruin, etc, or the parts that show rand dealing with the consequences and implications of that power? The fact that Rand is The Dragon Reborn drives the story, and creates action, but that by itself it doesn't provide interest.

But you'll notice I said that the main few characters can be justifiably powerful. The problem is that the Wheel of Time seems to have fallen down a slippery slope.

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and is all kinds of powerful.
As a result, Mat and Perrin have to be powerful enough to keep up.
Then the supporting characters have to be amped up to keep up with them.
And random tertiary characters have to be powered up enough that they can actually add something.
Which results in just about everybody in the world being ridiculously powerful.

The problem is that RJ has lost focus... he's spending his time on everything but what's nescessary to the story - detailing obscure customs of various cultures, following minor characters through their morning grooming rituals, showing the interactions of villains who won't actually appear in the story for three books, and running through every single character in the world's "Where was I when

Sai'Din was purged

" moment. Can we just get the story, please?

[Lief Erikson]

I liked how it showed everyone's reactions to the Sai'din.

[Tessar]

It's "Saidin" and "Saidar" .

I guess that, in a way, my attachment to RJ isn't so much that I really, truly love his writing style, it's that through his waffling on for twice as many books as are really needed to make a good story he's created a fascinating world. I suppose that if you're reading for the book itself, Wayfarer, you'll be quite annoyed and bored. I'm intrigued by the politics and such, and have been writing WoT RPGs for a couple of years now.

My writing skill level, although it's probably not more than 'okay' right now, is thanks almost completely to WoT RPGs. I remember Lief and someone else made a few comments when I left the moot for a few months, and then came back and started writing here again. It was because, intrigued by RJ's world, I went and started messing around with it.

So the books he spits out these days might not be as great as his first ones, but I still love RJ for those first few precious gems and the fact that he got me writing.


*twiddles thumbs*

I DO wish he'd hurry up and finish the bloody books though. Burn him.

[Wayfarer]

Apostraphes are sexay.

You did see, Tessar, the part where I admitted to liking the books? Sure, he has lots of neat ideas, I'm just irritated that they aren't better written.

And I, as the consumer of the literature which Jordan is producing, have the right to critisize the parts I don't like. I think I've read enough to be able to judge a book by its contents.

You know, I heard that WoT d20 was actually pretty good...

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Egwyn, Elayne, and Nynaeve all seem to be uncannily strong in the force, or whatever, able to become Amirlyn (even over only half the Aes Sedai), Queen, or whatever, or able to Capture and Imprison one of the Forsaken for a time. Oh, just in passing it should be mentioned that they've rediscovered the art of crafting Ter'Angreal, which has been lost for millenia, and have learned numerous other techniques (dreamwalking, teleportation, and so on) that have likewise been lost for ages.

Then again, every new Aes Sedai/Wise One/Windsomething (seapeople copy-cats) /those-who-weren't-really-Aes Sedai they happen to come upon seems to be stronger in the Force - Saidin, sorry - then anyone before (except from Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve, of course).

Combine everything Wayfarer said with the annoying fact that the Evil Gang of Invincible Dark Sorcerors who work for the Really Really Evil Dark Lord are totally inept at...well, anything, except from babbling about how they are going to betray the others, and you have my view on Jordan.
Through the 8 books I have read most of the bad guys and girls have been sitting around talking and abusing/torturing slaves, and at the end they set a trap that despite having been planned for a long time by supposedly intelligent people doesn't work. And then they get themselves killed.

Edit: A few errors corrected.

[Wayfarer]

Yep. It's a matter of escalation: When you immediately start off by establishing that a few main individuals are really powerful, and make that the focus of your plot, you basically force yourself into a corner and have to throw in more and more powerful enemies in order to keep up with them, and they have to become more and more powerful in order to defeat those enemies - and it becomes a viscious spiral. When you end off volume one by having the main character singlehandedly destroy a large army, there's only so much you can do for an encore.

Personally, I would have found it significantly more interesting if... well, there's several things that could have been done better, but there's really not much use in going over all of that again.

I will give Robert Jordan, though: His setting is less overpowered and a heck of a lot more interesting than Toril. That's not saying much, but it's something.

[Lenya]

OK. After having read all your opinions on RJ, his characters and al of that, I'd like to say a few things. Sorry if its late but I was stranded without internet for rather a long time.

First of all, I loved reading WoT and I can't wait for him to actually finish the thing. I like it mainly because of 4 things:

1) it is very important to me that the characters (especially the main ones) are fully developed, if I can put it that way. In WoT it feels as if I know them all by now and I love that. I can imagine the whole story taking place and I can totally live myself into it. You can't have a good book with wishy-washy people in it. That is why I am a great fan of long storylines and the fact that WoT is already 10 books long and not finished yet doesn't bother me at all - the more the merrier

2) like Lief Erikson said,

The depth and complexity of the world RJ has developed.

He has truly created a realistic world with its own legends, histories, peoples and the things like the Pattern and the World of Dreams (which is btw the best place!) Again, it is not hard to identify with it.

3) unlike in most other cases, the magic in WoT is actually cool. It is based on totally different principals and I find it less fake. I find that PJ succeeded in describing how it works and it forms part of their world, its not just something to add more spice.

4) Its stunning that the whole thing plays of just before Tarmon Gaidon (don't know the spelling). Seeing as how it is possibly the very end of all things, everyone is desperate and pushed to their limits. It ensures a little tension throughout whole storyline. And the fact that everything - habbits, politics, beliefs ect - is changing rappidly for everyone makes it so much more interesting to read about.

As for what Wayfarer said about everyone being bigger and better than the one before, its part of the whole just-before-end-of-the-world thing. The Forsaken has returned, the Dark One is about to break free and the blight is preparing itself for a final attack on the world. Similarly the Seanchan has returned for vengeance, the White Tower is ready to burst open , the Dragon is reborn, the Aiel and Menetheren is stirring again (hence the strength in Nynaeve and co) - the pattern is weaving all its resources together (Min, Cadsuane, Egwene being a Dreamer, Mat's extensive knowledge...) It is all part of the story.

[Lenya]

C'mon, don't let this thread die. I wan't to hear more people's oppinions.

[Daisy Baggins]

I've read all the books, even the New Spring. I think that the books have too many characters, and I find it impossible to keep them all straight. For me there is just enough of interest in each story to make me want to read the next book.

I'd be curious if anyone can answer this. Why does Jordan put in so much extraneous detail that just seems to bog the story down?