Wheel of Time discussions

[Beren3000]

Here you go, Pytt:

Originally Posted by Pytt

I just finished book 6 in WoT. really great, as you said Beren but you mentioned the following is a little dull, until the ninth?(maybe take it in the WoT thread

I'm glad you liked it; and yes, the series does slow down in intensity (I wouldn't go as far as saying "dull", though)
Don't you just love Rand's attittude with the Aes Sedai at the end? And they had it coming, too!

[Pytt]

I need to go to school But Rand was awesome. I really felt "oh, what now?" when they captured him. I say more about it after school.

[Lenya]

Hi, just peeking in. Yes, he did act cool then, even I loved it and yes, they totally deserved it. The end of the book was stunning - That part about bow down or we will make you (or something like that)

[Tessar]

Oie, they did indeed have it coming.

Snotty ol' wenches .

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...

Well well, what do we have here? Another Rand hater?
Kindly explain why you think Rand needs "his arse kicked".

[Tessar]

1. He's going insane.

2. He thinks he's got to save the world by himself.

3. He has no respect for anyone.

4. Since he's gained his Power he's lost all sense of tact and bullies everyone into doing what he wants.

5. He's acting like a stuck-up git!

Cadsuane totally rocks

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Oie, they did indeed have it coming.

Snotty ol' wenches .

I like any part with Cadsuane in it. She totally kicks Rand's arse--and boy does he start needing it...

Please take notice that I have only just started on book 7, so I have no idea of who this Cadsuane is. please take care, thank you

[Tessar]

I thought Cadsuane was in book six. Meh, I'm not sure.

Either way, read faster .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Tessar

1. He's going insane.

2. He thinks he's got to save the world by himself.

3. He has no respect for anyone.

4. Since he's gained his Power he's lost all sense of tact and bullies everyone into doing what he wants.

5. He's acting like a stuck-up git!

Cadsuane totally rocks

I don't understand her personality well enough to say.

I completely agree about the Aes Sedai having that coming. Rand is my favorite character in the books, the one I most enjoy reading about.

Point 1 you're a little off track on (though you already knew that), for he's not going insane any more. Point 2 you're correct on, but he DOES have to save the world by himself! It's written in the prophecies of the Dragon. So it's logical he thinks that. 3, 4 and 5 you're dead on correct about. However, every other character is exactly the same, except some of them are worse.

(continues his defense of Rand)

Self-centeredness is the key character trait Robert Jordan develops in all his characters (who are almost all precisely the same, personality-wise). I don't find them actually all that different from the villains. The villains are just further along the same path. The good guys don't love with anything more then human love- there is no giving, no humility, no generosity in their thought processes at all. It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another. I feel that Rand is actually doing some good disciplinary work when he twists them around his finger. It's not just the Aes Sedai. If half the characters in the series died in the next book, I wouldn't be sorry at all. I would just be a bit surprised, that's all. Rand actually has a rather noble objective- giving up his life for the world. He also has another noble objective- uniting the world so that it will be prepared for Tarmon Gaidon. If he bullies some bullies to get there, I forgive him.

Originally Posted by Lenya

- Lanfear and Asmodean were both so instensely absorbed in their own worlds that abselutely anyone could take advantage of them. Take for example Asmodean: al he could think of was getting inside the city that he got completely careless (always walking around it) and he trusted Lanfear. That's a no no. I must say he had guts not falling for Lanfear.

Well, unfortunately it's been too long since I read the book, so I can't argue much on the specific points you brought up. However, I do remember from the history I read to "The Wheel of Time" that those two individuals were extremely high ranking leaders in the Shadow. They are not the kind of individuals "anyone could take advantage of".

Originally Posted by Lenya

-he isn't always around those women and I think he should just get his attitude changed about them.

Any negative attitude Rand has toward any of Robert Jordan's women, I am in complete support of.

Originally Posted by Lenya

-There's no excuse for being proud and self-absorbed, at least not all the time. He should be able to handle that if he tries.

I agree that he's proud and self-absorbed. Who isn't, in Robert Jordan's world? I have yet to see a good character in the book. He is hammered at from every side by almost everyone. Very few in the story have Rand's objectives in mind, and Tarmon Gaidon (I think that is the name) is at hand.

Originally Posted by Lenya

-and as for morbid, that's fine. He just shouldn't sulk.

If you mean his grieving for the dead, isn't that a noble character trait? It shows his compassion. He has become hardened by his surroundings, by what people have done to him and to those around him. He is hardened by what he has been forced to do. I see the different difficult characteristics- pride, iron will, whatever else you may come up with, I see those largely forced into him. If you look at him in the beginning of the series, he wasn't like that. He was made like that by those around him, by his enemies and his "friends", and by the rulers of the nations who refuse to pay attention to the desperate importance of the hour. He's the one that's most aware, and his goal succeeding is THE important thing. Whatever the fates of these different struggles going on right now,

the clashes between Egwene and Elaida, Perrin and the Aiel, Elayne and her opponents, the Seanchin and those they fight

, whatever the conclusions of all those struggles, they are nothing compared to what Rand is trying to do. Rand's mission is the important mission, and no one else really seems to be cooperating. The primary ones that join him are those he takes by force.

And the people of the Prophet, of course

So anyway, my sympathy is with Rand, and I like him as a person a lot. I actually am rather annoyed at Cadsuane, trying to get her claws on him and make him change. People like her are the ones that made him what he is now in the first place. They should all die, or be made to serve . . . all of them . . .

[Pytt]

Thanks for covering Lief.
Interesting thoughts, can't wait till I'm finished!

But there was a thing I wondered about. In book 7, Leane says she are going to Bryne's camp to meet a guy, she is in looking for a good warder. I began thinking about if all Aes Sedai threats there warders like lovers, or husbands. A little later, the whole thing of passing Lan's bond without getting his acceptance, and all that(don't remember the name of the Aes Sedai) But there it is stated that she married all of her warders. Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Self-centeredness is the key character trait Robert Jordan develops in all his characters (who are almost all precisely the same, personality-wise). I don't find them actually all that different from the villains. The villains are just further along the same path. The good guys don't love with anything more then human love- there is no giving, no humility, no generosity in their thought processes at all. It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another. I feel that Rand is actually doing some good disciplinary work when he twists them around his finger. It's not just the Aes Sedai. If half the characters in the series died in the next book, I wouldn't be sorry at all. I would just be a bit surprised, that's all. Rand actually has a rather noble objective- giving up his life for the world. He also has another noble objective- uniting the world so that it will be prepared for Tarmon Gaidon. If he bullies some bullies to get there, I forgive him.

i agree 100%... Rand is one of the very few characters who looks past his own self-interest... a few others with a bit of nobility would be Loial, Perrin, Lan and Moiraine

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Pytt

Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?

if i remember correctly, she does... but that is not the case with all... it's kind of a personal choice thing

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Pytt

Thanks for covering Lief.
Interesting thoughts, can't wait till I'm finished!

But there was a thing I wondered about. In book 7, Leane says she are going to Bryne's camp to meet a guy, she is in looking for a good warder. I began thinking about if all Aes Sedai threats there warders like lovers, or husbands. A little later, the whole thing of passing Lan's bond without getting his acceptance, and all that(don't remember the name of the Aes Sedai) But there it is stated that she married all of her warders. Do she have sexual inference with her warders, or does any Aes Sedai?

I don't know about Leane specifically. However, I can tell you that the Green Ajah is the main Ajah that marries its warders or has sexual relations outside of wedlock with them. The Red doesn't have many (any?) Warders at all. The Green is the most "sexually free", and I don't how much are the others, except the Red.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i agree 100%... Rand is one of the very few characters who looks past his own self-interest... a few others with a bit of nobility would be Loial, Perrin, Lan and Moiraine

Loial I definitely agree about. Lan and Moiraine I also think I agree about, though I'm less positive. It's been a while since I've seen Loial actively involved in a book, but I seem to remember him being quite nice. That's an extremely rare quality for an RJ character . Perrin I have my doubts about. I think he's soon going to be committing adultery, and we've seen his readiness to torture someone to accomplish his aims, which I don't regard as noble. A few books ago I would have agreed with you and pointed to him immediately, but right now he's in the act of collapsing in my esteem.

[Elemmírë]

I rather like the Forsaken. And that False Dragon...Logain... I don't know why, though.

Anyway, I think you may be right, Lief. But I've got little sympathy for Perrin myself... I think he started boring me several books back. *shrug*

Meh. I've forgotten just about everything. I'll be leaving now.

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

...some stuff... all his characters .... l precisely the same ...some more stuff... ...It's incredible how nasty everyone is to one another... Any negative attitude Rand has toward any of Robert Jordan's women, I am in complete support of.... ...other stuff...

Which is exactly why Robert Jordan is a lousy author. Everything he writes is the sort of self serving, two-dimensional, bland, repetitive, sex/power fantasy, with absolutely no ... where was I going with this? *ahem* Yes. He happens to have occassional spots of good writing, but other than that...

[Lief Erikson]

I still enjoy the books .

[brownjenkins]

i enjoy them too... he is a good writer... i just think he could use a dilligent editor these days to force him back to the point every so often

[Pytt]

Yes, he is a very good writer. I really like his books, but your point has made me thinking, Lief. There don't seem to be any truly goodhearted characters in his books. I have not got far enough to know about Perrin, but this far I think he is a good character. But what you writed changes that a bit. Loial is one of the true noble. And some of the Aiel could be. in their strange way.

[Tessar]

Possibly the reason I dislike Rand in general is because he's a Power Player .

I mean think about it.

He's stabbed with an evil dagger, then hops out of bed as soon as he wakes up and runs off and actually manages to kill (if indirectly) one of the forsaken, and right as he's about to die (surprise, surprise...) some one shows up and saves him! Whoop-de-do.

He's also SO powerful that he stills several Aes Sedai when he breaks their weave. I mean knocking them out or something, but STILLING them that easily?

Rand has his authority because he's the biggest bully on the block, but Cadsuane has hers because she's lived for an unbelievable amount of time for an Aes Sedai who, we assume, is still bound to the Oath Rod, and because she's WORKED for her authority for years and years. Channelers with more strength than her hop to it when she's around. With Rand they just do every little thing they can to annoy him.

In addition, I think that Cadsuane rocks because she has no fear of Male Channelers whatsoever. I mean the three other women have no fear because they love Rand, but with Cadsuane it has nothing to do with wanting to hop into Rand's bed.

I do enjoy reading Rand's parts, and I enjoy most of the parts in the books, but I just don't like Rand's character.

[brownjenkins]

i'm not a huge cadsuane fan... way too much shiftyness and scheming for my taste... rand's pretty straight up with people, and i can respect that

the one thing that probably bugs me the most is how you can't help but think that if the "good" people just relaxed for a moment and actually trusted one another they'd all figure out that they are in it together

i think rand's a good guy deep down, just kinda sick of being mislead and told half-truths by everyone from moiraine to cadsuane