Wheel of Time discussions - Page 2

BeardofPants · 07-24-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessar

Read the DUNE books by Frank Herbert.

The first one was the best, and after that they fizzled out and got REALLY strange, but the first one was awsome, and the others were cool in their depth.

Tessar? You've read Dune? o_O

You're my new favourite person!

Be afraid... be very afraid....

Read them! Read them all! Or I'll kick you in the goulies.

***Tessar*** · 07-24-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Tessar? You've read Dune? o_O

You're my new favourite person!

*smooch* You know you love me anyways

.

Heh, yes I read them. Like I said not all of them because they started being a chore to read... I enjoyed it untill everyone was a Super God who could kill anyone with a look.

Plus it was kind of sad about Paul

. And I hated Leto. Little #($%(#

.

Lenya · 10-23-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lollypopgurl

Lol, Jordan does like to repeat himself on the Rand/Mat/Perrin and women thing.

The 4th book is still good. I think the series slows down around book 6 (Lord of Chaos, right?). Don't remember though, I just finished 9.

The series deffinately slows down, but it gets better again - book 9 was totally my favourite. Unfortunately book 10 wasn't that good.

***Tessar*** · 11-28-2004, 01:04 AM

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

Lief Erikson · 11-28-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessar

Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1

That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

I utterly agree

. Of course, I haven't reread any of the books. That's one part which I did reread, though. I hardly ever reread, but that scene of that book I've reread at least twice. I agree with you completely, a brilliantly created construct on Robert Jordan's part. Robert Jordan is great with at the descriptions of all his action sequences, and that one is around the top. I probably would say flat out at the top, only I haven't read any of the other books in ages, so I hardly remember their fight scenes well enough to compare. I definitely love that one around the top, though

.

Lenya · 12-05-2004, 08:40 AM

That was a stunning part, but my fav was where they fixed the weather. That whole chapter was stunning!

Beren3000 · 12-05-2004, 02:59 PM

One of the parts that gave me goosebumps in the Path of Daggers: when Rand is seized by madness and shouts: "I do not fear you Shai'tan! I am the storm!"
I haven't got to reading book 9 yet, so that will have to be my favorite WOT quote for the moment

Btw, did you guys know that Shai'tan is the Arabic word for Satan?

Lenya · 12-09-2004, 03:32 PM

Enjoy book 9. It was my favourite by far. So much is going to happen in there

Beren3000 · 12-09-2004, 03:39 PM

Is any of you familiar with Nietzsche's idea of Übermensch?
We've been studying about it in English class. Don't you think a tavere'n is an Übermensch?

Lenya · 12-09-2004, 03:43 PM

Don't think i've heard of it. what is an Übermensch? Apart from being kind of like tavere'n , that is.

Elemmírë · 12-09-2004, 07:31 PM

A neat idea, Beren. There's an article about the meaning of Übermensch here. I guess the word means "Superhuman" and basically describes someone who has broken away from God and conventions and has to create his own new moral ideas. Do I have it right, Beren? I haven't studies Nietzsche yet, though I find his ideas to be fascinating...

To me, the ideas of tavere'n and Übermensch seem somewhat different. The only similarity IMHO is that both seem to "make their own fate," so to speak, though I'm not quite sure if this is completely true for tavere'n, the definition of which I always took to mean someone around whom many fates are woven. Does that make sense? I don't have the books at hand...

As for my favourite part, I liked it when Nynaeve finally broke through her block and was able to use Saidar.

Though Rand cleaning Saidin was incredible too...

And, well, a lot of parts...

Beren3000 · 12-10-2004, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

A neat idea, Beren. There's an article about the meaning of Übermensch here. I guess the word means "Superhuman" and basically describes someone who has broken away from God and conventions and has to create his own new moral ideas. Do I have it right, Beren? I haven't studies Nietzsche yet, though I find his ideas to be fascinating...

First of all, thanks for the link!

Yes, you got it right (at least as far as I understand it). But the thing is, we're discussing the idea of Übermensch in relation to a novel called Demian by Herman Hesse. Have you read it? This novel seems to suggest, among other things, that people who enjoy the qualities of Übermensch can impose their will on others. So that's what basically reminded me of taver'en.

Elemmírë · 12-10-2004, 01:19 PM

No, I haven't read it. Hm... that seems a bit closer.

Do you mean unconsciously or consciously imposing their will upon others? When I think of tavere'n, imposing one's will does not come to mind, exactly. It seems more like a person around whom other fates are woven, instead of a person who can bind other fates to them.

Unconsciously, perhaps this is imposing will... but I'm not sure.

brownjenkins · 12-10-2004, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

No, I haven't read it. Hm... that seems a bit closer.

Do you mean unconsciously or consciously imposing their will upon others? When I think of tavere'n, imposing one's will does not come to mind, exactly. It seems more like a person around whom other fates are woven, instead of a person who can bind other fates to them.

Unconsciously, perhaps this is imposing will... but I'm not sure.

i agree that this seems to be how jordan sees it... not really a matter of "choice"

Beren3000 · 12-10-2004, 03:07 PM

Well that novel (Demian) seems to suggest that it is done consciously, through the exercise of one's will power. However, it might be a purely symbolic thing. The whole novel could be interpreted as an allegory, as far as I'm concerned. But there's this quote from it that reminded me so much of tavere'n. The novel is set before WWI. And this Übermensch (who also seems to be endowed of foresight) foretells a great conflict to come and tells his friend that after the war, people will seek new identities and shed off their old ideals and then it would be up to them (the Übermensches

) to build this new world; he tells him:
"The will of the future will gather around us". That sounds just like a tavere'n to me, changing the course of history and all that.
By the way, according to my English teacher, Nietzsche considered the following people as Übermensch:
-Jesus
-Napoleon
-Alexander the Great
etc... IOW, great leaders. But it seems to me that RJ would also call these people tavere'n: people who shaped their fate rather than their fate them. When it comes to the matter of being aware of doing that, I have no point to make

Elemmírë · 12-10-2004, 04:11 PM

Oh, I agree. Those people would definitely be ta'veren, according to the definition of the word (which I finally looked up

):

Quote:

A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.

I see nothing conscious in that.

However, because someone could be considered both ta'veren and Übermensch does not mean that the two words are synonyms for each other.

Also, I don't believe (now seeing the true definition

) that ta'veren are definitely able to shape their own fate... If anything, it seems to me that they would have less say in their destiny than most, if fate is so dependent upon them.

Lenya · 12-10-2004, 04:23 PM

Ta'veren can't control their own fate. Rand knew that and stopped fighting it. He also wanted Mat (I think) to realise it, for his own sake - that it is imposible to fight his fate and thus he should just go with the flow.

I don't believe they can control other's fates willingly either. and yes, by what I hear of an Übermensch, I do believe they are very closely related.

Pytt · 01-09-2005, 04:16 PM

Now I have started on book six. And the beginning is very good, a short summary from all the main characters. I hope it is as good as you people say, and I will tell you what I think when I have finished

besides, Beren 3000, you asked for the things I liked best in the books, and I remembered I really enjoied it when Mat beat GAwyn and Galhad in with a quarter staff in the third book, maybe. or was it the fourth? anyway, I loved that.

***Tessar*** · 01-10-2005, 03:26 AM

It was the third

*is rereading them*

Pytt · 01-10-2005, 09:28 AM

ok.

How far have you got rereading?

12-09-2004, 07:31 PM	#31
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	A neat idea, Beren. There's an article about the meaning of Übermensch here. I guess the word means "Superhuman" and basically describes someone who has broken away from God and conventions and has to create his own new moral ideas. Do I have it right, Beren? I haven't studies Nietzsche yet, though I find his ideas to be fascinating... To me, the ideas of tavere'n and Übermensch seem somewhat different. The only similarity IMHO is that both seem to "make their own fate," so to speak, though I'm not quite sure if this is completely true for tavere'n, the definition of which I always took to mean someone around whom many fates are woven. Does that make sense? I don't have the books at hand... As for my favourite part, I liked it when Nynaeve finally broke through her block and was able to use Saidar. Though Rand cleaning Saidin was incredible too... And, well, a lot of parts... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

12-10-2004, 01:19 PM	#33
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	No, I haven't read it. Hm... that seems a bit closer. Do you mean unconsciously or consciously imposing their will upon others? When I think of tavere'n, imposing one's will does not come to mind, exactly. It seems more like a person around whom other fates are woven, instead of a person who can bind other fates to them. Unconsciously, perhaps this is imposing will... but I'm not sure. __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-09-2005, 04:16 PM	#38
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	Now I have started on book six. And the beginning is very good, a short summary from all the main characters. I hope it is as good as you people say, and I will tell you what I think when I have finished besides, Beren 3000, you asked for the things I liked best in the books, and I remembered I really enjoied it when Mat beat GAwyn and Galhad in with a quarter staff in the third book, maybe. or was it the fourth? anyway, I loved that. __________________ Don't Panic!

01-10-2005, 09:28 AM	#40
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	ok. How far have you got rereading? __________________ Don't Panic!

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11-28-2004, 01:04 AM	#24
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	Oh man. That one chapter where Rand is doing the thing to Saidin and Nyn is helping him (dun wanna give the plot away for any who haven't read it...) but man... that battle was THE MOSTEST TOTALLY WICKED THING EVER!!!!!!!!ONEONEONEONEONE!!!1 That is my fav. chapter from ANY book.

12-05-2004, 08:40 AM	#26
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	That was a stunning part, but my fav was where they fixed the weather. That whole chapter was stunning!

12-05-2004, 02:59 PM	#27
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	One of the parts that gave me goosebumps in the Path of Daggers: when Rand is seized by madness and shouts: "I do not fear you Shai'tan! I am the storm!" I haven't got to reading book 9 yet, so that will have to be my favorite WOT quote for the moment Btw, did you guys know that Shai'tan is the Arabic word for Satan?

12-09-2004, 03:32 PM	#28
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	Enjoy book 9. It was my favourite by far. So much is going to happen in there

12-09-2004, 03:39 PM	#29
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Is any of you familiar with Nietzsche's idea of Übermensch? We've been studying about it in English class. Don't you think a tavere'n is an Übermensch?

12-09-2004, 03:43 PM	#30
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	Don't think i've heard of it. what is an Übermensch? Apart from being kind of like tavere'n , that is.

12-10-2004, 03:07 PM	#35
Beren3000 Fëanorophobic Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the pages of a book Posts: 1,417	Well that novel (Demian) seems to suggest that it is done consciously, through the exercise of one's will power. However, it might be a purely symbolic thing. The whole novel could be interpreted as an allegory, as far as I'm concerned. But there's this quote from it that reminded me so much of tavere'n. The novel is set before WWI. And this Übermensch (who also seems to be endowed of foresight) foretells a great conflict to come and tells his friend that after the war, people will seek new identities and shed off their old ideals and then it would be up to them (the Übermensches ) to build this new world; he tells him: "The will of the future will gather around us". That sounds just like a tavere'n to me, changing the course of history and all that. By the way, according to my English teacher, Nietzsche considered the following people as Übermensch: -Jesus -Napoleon -Alexander the Great etc... IOW, great leaders. But it seems to me that RJ would also call these people tavere'n: people who shaped their fate rather than their fate them. When it comes to the matter of being aware of doing that, I have no point to make

12-10-2004, 04:23 PM	#37
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	Ta'veren can't control their own fate. Rand knew that and stopped fighting it. He also wanted Mat (I think) to realise it, for his own sake - that it is imposible to fight his fate and thus he should just go with the flow. I don't believe they can control other's fates willingly either. and yes, by what I hear of an Übermensch, I do believe they are very closely related.

01-10-2005, 03:26 AM	#39
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	It was the third is rereading them