Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved King.

[BelegS]

Finrod Felagund: An obviously well-loved King.
The greatest of the Kings of his Generation. Thus Greater then Fingon and Meadhros
He was a pretty fine lover too, never forgetting his loved one sitting way back in Aman.

Behind this leaguer from the Sea to Eryd Luin the wide countries of Beleriand, west and east of Sirion, were held in this wise. Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor, well-beloved of all Elves, became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals; and he had also a fort and place of battle in the north, in the wide pass between Eredwethrin and Dorthonion through which Sirion flowed south. There stood an isle amid the river, and upon it Inglor built a mighty watchtower: Minnas-tirith: and there, when Nargothrond was made, he set Orodreth as warden. But upon either side of Narog all the folk of either race that dwelt in the lands took him for their lord, as far south as the Mouths of Sirion, and from Nenning in the West to the borders of Doriath eastward. But in Eglarest, and west of Nenning to the Sea, CÃ*rdan the Shipwright |was lord, yet ever he was close in friendship with Nargothrond.

Thus perished Inglor Felagund son of Finrod, fairest and most beloved of the children of Finwë, and returned never again to Middle-earth. But it is said that released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amárië.

But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amárië of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.

Two Quessies,

Question: By whom was Amárië restrained? By Vanyar? But if she really loved Finrod that she could have gone with him or joined the exiles? The statement implies that she didn’t refuse to go with Finrod due to her own will, and then who restrained her? Could it have been the Valar? But weren’t Valar not supposed to interfere in the matters of the Children? Wasn’t Amárië free to choose what she wanted for herself? Has Tolkien anywhere told the reason why she was restrained and by whom she was restrained?

With '[Felagund] dwells now in Valinor with Amárië' cf. QS I (V.300): 'But Inglor walks with Finrod his father among his kinsfolk in the light of the Blessed Realm, and it is not written that he has ever returned to Middle-earth.' In Version II (§199) it is said that 'released soon from Mandos, he went to Valinor and there dwells with Amárië.' It has been told in the annal for 102 (§109) that 'she whom [Felagund] had loved was Amárië of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.'

Note the above statement is the commentary of C.T in the Chapter the Grey Annals.

My Question is why was he released from Mandos soon? Was their any merit according to which Elves were released by Mandos? Can someone explain in detail the whole procedure of release from Mandos? So the elves that died heroic deaths saving others were released earlier because Mandos took pity at them? Finrod’s case is here, Glorifindel’s case is here? What are your thoughts?

[Wayfarer]

Welcome to my Night... Entmoot, BelegS

By whom was Amárië restrained? By Vanyar? But if she really loved Finrod that she could have gone with him or joined the exiles? The statement implies that she didn’t refuse to go with Finrod due to her own will, and then who restrained her? Could it have been the Valar? But weren’t Valar not supposed to interfere in the matters of the Children? Wasn’t Amárië free to choose what she wanted for herself? Has Tolkien anywhere told the reason why she was restrained and by whom she was restrained?

Most likely, almost positively, it was due to the fact that she was a Vanyar. The noldor were allowed to go if they desired, the Teleri would not have gone in any case, but the Vanyar, I don't think, would have been given permission. Amárië was likely restrained by the valar and, even moreso, her friends and family. Perhaps even Finrod himself- would you let the woman you loved follow you into torment and death?

why was he released from Mandos soon? Was their any merit according to which Elves were released by Mandos? Can someone explain in detail the whole procedure of release from Mandos? So the elves that died heroic deaths saving others were released earlier because Mandos took pity at them? Finrod’s case is here, Glorifindel’s case is here? What are your thoughts?

I am quite certain that time spent in mandos, as a period of 'healing', is directly dependant on the nature of the elf's life and death.

Finrod lived, for the most part, in harmony with the Valar. He was an undeniably Nice Guy (tm). He died a valiant death, keeping the oath he had made to a friend by fighting off a werewolf from the inheritor of that debt. He didn't need to spend much time in mandos because he really didn't /need/ healing.

Feanor, as an opposite example, was Messed Up (tm). He was mentally and spiritually corrupt, and because of that he been healed even yet.

[Ruinel]

I have to disagree. The Valar did not keep the Eldar in Aman, they didn't restain them. That was the lie of Melkor: that the Valar would hold them in captivity in Valinor if they tried to leave.
But...

The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or to depart; and though they might judge departure to be folly, they might not restrain them from it.

That's Eldar, not Noldor. The Vanyar were free to go as well, if they so chose.

I think that if she truely loved Finrod, nothing would have kept her from following him. And since the Valar were not restraining her, in all essence, she was free to go if her will was there. I would think that if they were in love, that at least she was an adult (the other option is really gross), therefore capable of free will.

JRRT never said what really kept Amarie from leaving with Finrod. This is the quote from The Sil...

But it is said that not unitl that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie (the evil one) of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile."

It does not say here that she was not permitted to go. She just didn't go. I think it is also in another book, but I can't seem to find it right now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Since Tolkien never states who forbid Amarie from joining the Exile, I think Wayfarer has added a very interesting twist to the possibilities. Finrod himself. Very interesting indeed Wayfarer.

[Ruinel]

*wink* I knew you'd find this thread SGH.

Can anyone tell me what book and where I can find the quote posted originally that says "not permitted" instead of "she went not with him into exile"?

Wayfarer has a good point. But at the time of departure he did not know what would happen to him. So, then why would he keep her from going?

[Rían]

Yes, I've wondered about the "not permitted" thingy -

It's in PoME, Ruinel, pg. 318 of hardback version (I love those good indicies!) Also appears to be in another HoME book, but I don't know which...

[Rían]

Oh, also PoME pg 349, it refs XI.44, §108. Which HoME is XI? Oh, it's WoTJ, isn't it? I wannnnttttsss it, my precious!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Wayfarer has a good point. But at the time of departure he did not know what would happen to him. So, then why would he keep her from going?

Oh come on. He may not have known all the evils he would face, but he knew that persueing the most evil of all beings would not be a safe and fun thing to do.

[Rían]

Still, it's such a strange wording ... it's an authority-type word, and I don't see elves having that type of authority over other elves... I think Tolkien would have used the word 'persuaded' or 'pleaded with her', if it was Finrod that told her to stay .... (RÃ*an is in a musing mood, so is using lots of '.....'s)

The only authority I really can think of as far as keeping people somewhere is Mandos - once someone is with him, they seem to be stuck until he says they can go...

[Wayfarer]

You must also remember that Finrod spoke many times about his forbodings and premonitions- he knew he was going to die, and he told his Sister about it. Why wouldn't he have had an inkling before he left valinor?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I think that if she truely loved Finrod

Now how did I know you would say that?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I've said before that I thought it may also have been a parental decision.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I've said before that I thought it may also have been a parental decision.

Eww. Wouldn't that make her a child if she were under parental control? Ick. If that were true, I might have to drop Finrod. But I'm sure it is not. So, I'm keeping him. *wink*

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You must also remember that Finrod spoke many times about his forbodings and premonitions- he knew he was going to die, and he told his Sister about it. Why wouldn't he have had an inkling before he left valinor?

Ah, yes. That is true. *thinks* But wasn't it after he had already arrived in ME that he forbode the destruction of Nargothrond and his own death?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
It's in PoME, Ruinel, pg. 318 of hardback version ... also PoME pg 349, it refs XI.44, §108. Which HoME is XI? Oh, it's WoTJ, isn't it?

*wades through all of her JRRT hardback books* (Aer ya jealous? Ya should be. *wink*) XI is WotJ, you are correct. *flips through PoME to pg. 318.*

the story emerged that Felagund had no wife, and that 'she whom he had *cough* loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile. That story had in fact been abandoned, or forgotten, but it would return: see the note on Gil-galad, p. 350.

*whistles while flipping pages* Yep, this version (as well as another version) are shown there as well. (Wow, I didn't know that Felagund was supposed to be Gil-galad's father in another version. Wow! What a shocker.)
Thanks.
Curious. Do you think that the "not permitted" was abandoned in the final published version of The Sil because it caused the reader to think that the Eldar did not have free will to come and go from Valinor????

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Amárië was likely restrained by the valar and, even moreso, her friends and family. Perhaps even Finrod himself- would you let the woman you loved follow you into torment and death?

Finrod may have councelled Amárië not to go with him, but if she loved him I don't think she would have listened to his advice. But if her parents did restrain her, she would be much more obliged to follow their advice. This hasn't anything to do with the free will of the Eldar, it's a parent - child relationship. I would think for Finrod to love her, she must have had a gentle personality and would not be likely to oppose the will of her parents.

I am quite certain that time spent in mandos, as a period of 'healing', is directly dependant on the nature of the elf's life and death.

Agree. It was the duty of the Valar to 'restore' the Elves when they were slain, because the separation of the fëa and rhöa of the Elves was an unnatural and grievious thing. But it was in Manwë's power to decide the length of their sojourn in Mandos, a time which depended on their need of healing. I suppose all of the Ñoldor who had taken part in the rebellion would need some healing, but Finrod had made a great sacrifice by rescuing Beren, and his part of the rebellion may thus have been amended.

[BelegS]

The Quotes and The commentry of CT is from Grey Annals, War of Jewel's, HOME £ I don't remember, silly me.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
Finrod may have councelled Amárië not to go with him, but if she loved him I don't think she would have listened to his advice. But if her parents did restrain her, she would be much more obliged to follow their advice. This hasn't anything to do with the free will of the Eldar, it's a parent - child relationship.

JRRT wrote of others that opposed the will of their parents to be with the one they loved. For example, Luthien opposed her father to run off with Beren... but Beren would not marry her until he had fulfilled his Oath to Thingol. I always thought of Luthien as sweet and graceful, but love of her father could not keep her from the love of Beren. I never thought for a minute that Luthien would be the type to challenge Morgoth. Had it not been for her love of Beren, she would have spent her life in Doriath happily, and without the trials she went through.

However, I can't see any other reason why she wouldn't go with him, your reason sounds like the only logical choice.
A) She still would have followed Finrod had he asked her to stay (if she truely loved him).
B) The Valar did not keep the Eldar in Valinor.
C) If she was more loyal to her parents than to her love, then she might then do as her parents bid and stay with them in Valinor.
'C' is the only logical answer.