Favorite Elf-King?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by bropous
Ah, I see, SisterGoldenHair. But this brings up an old question: If it says one thing in The Silmarillion, and another in the History of Middle-Earth, which one is "right," or maybe more precisely, which is "more correct"? Do we simply say it's inconsistent and not really answerable, or is one considered more reliable than the other. I don't really know.

The final version is most likely the way Tolkien meant it to be, unless he was planning more changes and did not live to make them. As for which version is correct, I guess it's a matter of what's correct for you. I have always leaned towards the version in the Sil, since it was the first one and out of the text I grew to love. So, no version is right or wrong. Of course, it is my understanding that the parentage of Orodreth in the Sil. was an error on the part of CT and that Tolkien had never intended him to be the son of Finarfin. How accurate this is, I do not know.

[Nariel Starfire]

I vote for Thranduil because if not for him, we wouldn't have Legolas

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
D'ya get all that?

Thanks for the enlightenment Sister Golden Hair, somehow I find myself able to say only one word to this: YIKES!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel


Thanks for the enlightenment Sister Golden Hair, somehow I find myself able to say only one word to this: YIKES!

Yeah, it's very confusing. I'm still confused and probably always will be nomatter how many time it's explained.YIKES is right.

[bropous]

Good points, SisterGoldenHair. Looks like, in the end, it pretty much ends up being a subjective matter [which is the more correct] or just unimportant altogether.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
, no version is right or wrong. Of course, it is my understanding that the parentage of Orodreth in the Sil. was an error on the part of CT and that Tolkien had never intended him to be the son of Finarfin. How accurate this is, I do not know.

Christopher makes it clear that what he published in The Silmarillion is wrong. The correct genealogy, and the only one he should have used in The Silmarillion, makes Gil-galad the son of Orodreth, and Orodreth the son of Angrod.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's what I thought.

[Tar-Elenion]

I originally posted this on the rec.arts.books.tolkien newsgroup.

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This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters.
It seems that Orodreth is the son of Finarfin (who was earlier named Finrod), third son (and fifth child) of Finwe, up through 1958. He appears as such in the 'Annals of Aman' (HoME 10), the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)' (HoME 10 and 11), and the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11). These were initially written in ca. 1950-1952. Corrections and
emendations were made to these manuscripts and amanuensis typescripts, including these changes, were made in 1958. Finarfin in these typescripts is still called Finrod and Finrod Felagund is named Inglor.
Later JRRT begins to emend these typescripts with changes including the names of Finrod and Inglor to Finarfin and Finrod and indications of the removal of Orodreth from among Finarfin's children. Finarfin is named Arafinwe in the earlier versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' which are
dated to 1958 or earlier. The first unaltered appearence of the name: Finarfin (or Finarphin) is in the later versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' and the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)' dated to 1959 (or later); while Finrod (for previously Inglor) is in the 'Athrabeth' also dated to 1959 (or later). In the 'Elessar' essay (UT) Galadriel refers to
herself as the last of Finrod's children, and names Angrod, Aegnor and Felagund as the others but fails to mention Orodreth, who CT notes was removed and placed a generation down.
Gil-galad first appears as a Feanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937. In the original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell, HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a
descendant of Feanor (which ties in with the original FNII). On an 'isolated' sheet associated with (III) version Gil-galad is said to be son of 'Fin...' where the writing is illegible (CT notes that the fourth letter is _possibly_ an 'r' but the name is definitely not Finrod), this is struck out and 'Inglor?' is written in, this possibly dates to 1939 or early 1940 (HoME VII). Though marked with a query this agrees with the (III) version which has Gil-galad as son of Felagund seemingly through its association with the new ending to the Fall of Numenor II which was revised at the time of the writing of the third version of the Council of Elrond. In an early alteration to the Quenta
Silmarillion text of HoME V, Felagund is mentioned as having a wife (Meril) and their son is Gil-galad. In the T3 version of the Tale of Years (of the Second Age) Gil-galad is the son of Felagund and this is also the case with 'Of the Rings of Power'. 'RoP' was extant (in versions) by 1948 (L. 115), while the 'T3' version is no later than August of '50 and was likely written in 1949 (PoME).

At this point it seems that we have Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (or rather Finrod) through 1958. Gil-galad is a Feanorian from ca. 1937 through ca. 1939. Gil-galad is the son of Finrod (or rather Inglor) Felagund from ca. 1940 until ca. 1949.

In the Gray Annals it is said that Felagund had no wife and this is consistant with Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta Silmarillion. That Felagund had no wife is maintained up until Dec. 1959.

In a 'pencilled note' on the amanuensis typescript of the Grey Annals Fingon is noted as the father of Gil-galad.

In a note (likely dated to Dec. 1959) to the genealogies (Finrod) Felagund is again given a son, Artanaro Rhodothir, otherwise known as Orodreth father of Finduilas. Later JRRT noted that Finrod had no child and had left his wife in Aman. At this point Orodreth is now made the
son of Angrod (and renamed Artaresto) (PoME).

Now referring back to the 'Elessar' essay which must date from the time before 'Inglor' became 'Finrod' as Finrod (ie Finarfin) is her father but after or about the time Orodreth is made her nephew. That would tend to date the Elessar essay to late 1959 or 1960 (which may indicate
that the 'Athrabeth' should be dated into 1960 as it seems that name Finrod was not given to Inglor until after Orodreth had been removed as his brother).

In 'Aldarion and Erendis' Gil-galad is named 'Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin'. In UT CT dates this work to 1965, though in PoME he says this might be dated to 1960. JRRT notes this work as 'nearly complete' in September of 1965 (L. 276). It seems that this must be later than the 'Elessar' story (as Finarfin is used for
Finrod). But it is not impossible that Finarfin maintained the name Finrod for a time as well before it was decided that Felagund should receive it. Gil-galad is also called Finellach the 'Description of the Island of Numenor'.

It is not noted what parentage Gil-galad had as 'Finellach', though CT notes this preceded by some time the making of Gil-galad into the son of Orodreth, which happened in August of 1965 when 'scribbled at great
speed' a note, suggesting that Gil-galad (here named Rodnor/Artanaro) should be the son Orodreth (Artaresto), son of Angrod, was written.

In the Elessar essay Celebrimbor is noted as a jewel smith of Gondolin, though in a note JRRT wrote against that essay he says it would be better to make Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor (PoME). This happened with the Second Edition of RotK (1966). JRRT noted in one of his copies of this edition that Celebrimbor had grown to love Finrod and his
(unnamed) wife while dwelling s refugee in Nargothrond.

In the 1968 Shibboleth of Feanor, Orodreth is noted as 'Artaher' the son of Angarato (Angrod) and Eldalote. Gil-galad (Ereinion) is referred to with the Finarfinians and in a footnote is said to be the son of Artaher.

Orodreth is son of Finarfin until (it seems) 1959. Towards the end of 1959 he is made the son of Finrod Felagund. But this is then emended to the son of Angrod, since Finrod had no wife. However in an undated note on a 1966 copy of RotK Finrod is said to have a wife (in Nargothrond). In the Shibboleth there is no mention of his having a wife. Through the 1950's Gil-galad was no longer Finrod's son as Finrod had no wife, and he was noted as the son of Fingon on the 1958 typescript. Gil-galad returns to being a Finarfinian in the '60's (possibly as late as 1965
or as early as 1960). But who was his father considered to be in the Aldarion and Erendis essay, before he was made the son of Orodreth? We only have him being of the 'House of Finarfin'. When was the note made on the Second Edition of RotK that suggests Finrod did have a wife in exile? What was Gil-galad's lineage when he was descended from Feanor?


Tar-Elenion

--
He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every
stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long
ago did thee this hurt.
--------------------------------

[Sister Golden Hair]

I like your signature Tar-Elenion. I just noticed it.

[Tar-Elenion]

I just noticed that I have two in that post. Which one were you referring to?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I just noticed that I have two in that post. Which one were you referring to?

The one from the Athrabeth.

[Earniel]

Thank you Tar-Elenion, I think that explains it all... I think (sorry, just finished my exams today, my brain still needs some poking to come out of hibernation)

[Radagast The Brown]

I'm answered on the original question:

I liked more then all the king elves Fingolfin because he was bether and smarter then Feanor and stronger then Finarfin. I liked the way he fighted with Melkor.

[Finrod Felagund]

Finrod Felagund definitely. His grandfather was of the Noldor, his Grandmother was of the Vanyar and his mother was a Teleri. He also first met mortal men and was willing to give up his life for his friend Beren. What a guy!

[Finrod Felagund]

Finwe was the first king of the Noldor. His sons were Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin.
Finarfin's children were Finrod (Felagund), Galadriel, Angrod, Aegnor and Orodreth.
Fingolfin's children were Fingon, Turgon and their sister (can't remember her name, the mother of Maeglin)
We know Feanor's seven sons of course but his seemingly only grandson was Celebrimbor, who made the three rings.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, as has been stated many times before, in the end Orodreth is not Finrod Felagund's brother. This was a mistake that was made by C.T. in the Silmarillion, and later corrected.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Fingolfin's children were Fingon, Turgon and their sister (can't remember her name, the mother of Maeglin)

Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

[Ñólendil]

Fingolfin had another son most people don't know about. You can read about him in The Peoples of Middle-earth, The Shibboleth of Fëanor. He was the youngest, tallest and most impetuous of Fingolfin's children. His name was Argon. He perished in The Battle of the Lammoth, which according to the Shibboleth occured when the Orcs of Morgoth attacked Fingolfin's host, new-come to Middle-earth. He died a valiant death, before the Quenya names of the Exiles were translated into Grey-elven, but in memory of him he was called Argon. (He was known as Aracáno in Valinor).

According to the Silmarillion as published, there was no Argon and there was no Battle of the Lammoth. Fingolfin's host therin passed unopposed to Hithlum. I accept the version set out above because it's the later one.

[Liviaine]

My favorite would be Thranduil because of Legolas, but we don't know much about him in comparison to some others. Other than him, I don't know.

[Finrod Felagund]

Conversation with my dad

Finrod:Who's your favourite elf-king?

Dad: Feanor. Yeah he had a bad temper but he made so much cool stuff and was the greatest of the elves
I like the grey forest king too

Finrod: THingol? you know Elwe?

Dad: No

Finrod: Not Thingol?

Dad: Oh yeah! I thought you said Fingol.