Eol - Page 2

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-17-2002, 02:39 AM

I don't believe that Eol and Feanor are comparable.

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 02:48 AM

Why are they not comparable? I think they are very comparable. I think Faenor and Sam Gamgee are comparable. They're all essentially human, you know.

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 02:48 AM

Eol was not a villain. He meets none of the criteria. He acts from passion, and I fond it hard to call an unwillingness to trust the sons of Feanor or their kin a fatal flaw.

Sounds more like common sense to me

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 02:50 AM

Blackheart, to quote yourself: "I could kill you out of love, but it doesn't matter one whit, does it?"

Eöl deliberatly tried to murder his son, doesn't that make him a criminal and thus, a villain?

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 02:53 AM

No. Turgon ordered either death, or imprisonment, both for him and his son.

He chose death.

He also chose for his son. Care to guess the elvish age of majority?

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 03:06 AM

Oh I see. I guess I didn't really pick up on that part. Makes it all the more interesting. 'Course, it was not "imprisonment" to Maeglin. Indeed after a fashion Maeglin and Aredhel were imprisoned in Nan Elmoth.

Age of majority?

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 03:08 AM

age of majority for humans (in modern society) 18

slowly being pushed up to 21.

In other words, the age when an individual is considered an adult, and no longer the responsibility (or in the dark ages chattel) of their parents.

Which brings it back to child custody. Obviously a cultural conflict, perhaps the telri were patriarchal.. oh wait so were the Noldor, so according to mideavial custom, the father would likely have had the final say about where the child would reside...

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 03:10 AM

Ah. Being more aquainted with Tolkien than with my own story, I know it only as "coming of age"

Sad, isn't it?

I think Tolkien actually answered it for us, though. I could be wrong, but I think he mentions it in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 08-17-2002, 03:11 AM

For an Elf 50-100.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-17-2002, 03:43 AM

So how old was Maeglin when they went to Gondolin? I know my perspective on this issue really twists my views on it, because the way I see it, Eol was being overly possesive of Aredhel and Maeglin. Aredhel, and Maeglin, as I think he was old enough then, should have had their free will, etc. But if I were to look at it taking into consideration the culture and time, as I must do, then Eol's over-possesiveness of his wife and son (perhaps comparable to Feanor and his Silmarils?) seems a little less...horrible...to me. But not enough that I would be too forgiving of him, and I would say he is a villain, of sorts.
And, again from my perspective, seen through the clouded glass of our 'modern' society, I think that no one should be able to choose life or death for someone other than themselves. Of course, in Gondolin, then, the laws were different. Er.

BeardofPants · 08-17-2002, 03:53 AM

I'm sorry, but I just cannot place Eol even in the same boat as Feanor. Yes, I think he was misguided, but I think it's a bit of a leap to try and brand him as evil. He simply doesn't meet the criteria.

afro-elf · 08-17-2002, 03:56 AM

Think if he had done his deeds to you. How would you feel?

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 04:06 AM

What? married me, gave me a son, then got mad becasue I ran off with the kids to my brother in-law's house where my Brother in-law wants to kill me before he'll let me leave?

Hell I can't say I blame the guy, but I'd have thrown the damned spear at Turgon, and chuckled when she dove in front of it.

BeardofPants · 08-17-2002, 04:06 AM

I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, his were crimes of passion. Ill thought out, and definately not premeditated. The kinslaying on the other hand...

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-17-2002, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
Think if he had done his deeds to you. How would you feel?

Very, very angry! Here's for another of his crimes. . .

This is when Aredhel has strayed into his woods and is lost...

Quote:

And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feiniel as she strayed among the tall trees near the borders of Nan Elmoth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants as he had, silent and secret as their master. And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into to his house. And there she remained; for Eol took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kin heard of her again.

Okay. So Eol tricked her and ensared her with his enchantments, because he saw her and desired her. Had he not been so compulsive and...greedy...perhaps Gondolin would not have fallen. Aredhel would have found her way out, or not, but had he not ensnared her so, none of that would have happened. He didn't have to trick her that way. It was cruel. I would be very, very upset had he done that to me...and he then gave her the illusion of freedom, so she would be happy for a while. He really kept her captive, even if it did not seem like that at first.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 08-17-2002, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
What? married me, gave me a son, then got mad becasue I ran off with the kids to my brother in-law's house where my Brother in-law wants to kill me before he'll let me leave?

Hell I can't say I blame the guy, but I'd have thrown the damned spear at Turgon, and chuckled when she dove in front of it.

Who says she wanted to get married and have a son? And those were the laws of Gondolin Turgon set to keep his city safe. Not that it helped any. . .

And BoP, some of Eol's actions were premeditated. And those that weren't, well, Feanor didn't exactly sit down and make plans to slay the Teleri and burn the ships. They were compulsive decisions.

BeardofPants · 08-17-2002, 04:11 AM

Ensnaring, and entrapping DOES NOT make someone evil.

EG, I don't get you. You think that Feanor isn't evil, but Eol is?! Sorry, but where's the reasoning in that?

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 04:12 AM

So he was the first guy to take advantage of a lost woman? The first guy to even lie to a woman, or cnchant or charm a woman?

Hell at least he married her, instead of kicking her out and giving her cab fare.

afro-elf · 08-17-2002, 04:13 AM

vil·lain Pronunciation Key (vln)
n.
A wicked or evil person; a scoundrel.
A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero.
(also vln, v-ln) Variant of villein.
Something said to be the cause of particular trouble or an evil: poverty, the villain in the increase of crime.
Obsolete. A peasant regarded as vile and brutish.

Blackheart · 08-17-2002, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf

Who says she wanted to get married and have a son? And those were the laws of Gondolin Turgon set to keep his city safe. Not that it helped any. . .

Well no where does it mention the word rape. Obviously there was a premeditated concencus on the sex, or at least not much objection. If a child issues from such a union, it's generally both parents that take responsibility.

As for Turgon, he obviously made an exception for his relatives at least once. The idea that it was only "the law" involved in his decision rings sort of hollow to me.

08-17-2002, 02:48 AM	#2
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Why are they not comparable? I think they are very comparable. I think Faenor and Sam Gamgee are comparable. They're all essentially human, you know. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-17-2002, 02:48 AM	#3
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Eol was not a villain. He meets none of the criteria. He acts from passion, and I fond it hard to call an unwillingness to trust the sons of Feanor or their kin a fatal flaw. Sounds more like common sense to me __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

08-17-2002, 02:50 AM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Blackheart, to quote yourself: "I could kill you out of love, but it doesn't matter one whit, does it?" Eöl deliberatly tried to murder his son, doesn't that make him a criminal and thus, a villain? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-17-2002, 02:53 AM	#5
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	No. Turgon ordered either death, or imprisonment, both for him and his son. He chose death. He also chose for his son. Care to guess the elvish age of majority? __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

08-17-2002, 03:06 AM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Oh I see. I guess I didn't really pick up on that part. Makes it all the more interesting. 'Course, it was not "imprisonment" to Maeglin. Indeed after a fashion Maeglin and Aredhel were imprisoned in Nan Elmoth. Age of majority? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-17-2002 at 03:07 AM.

08-17-2002, 02:39 AM	#1
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I don't believe that Eol and Feanor are comparable.

08-17-2002, 03:08 AM	#7
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	age of majority for humans (in modern society) 18 slowly being pushed up to 21. In other words, the age when an individual is considered an adult, and no longer the responsibility (or in the dark ages chattel) of their parents. Which brings it back to child custody. Obviously a cultural conflict, perhaps the telri were patriarchal.. oh wait so were the Noldor, so according to mideavial custom, the father would likely have had the final say about where the child would reside... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 08-17-2002 at 03:11 AM.

08-17-2002, 03:10 AM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Ah. Being more aquainted with Tolkien than with my own story, I know it only as "coming of age" Sad, isn't it? I think Tolkien actually answered it for us, though. I could be wrong, but I think he mentions it in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-17-2002, 03:11 AM	#9
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	For an Elf 50-100.

08-17-2002, 03:43 AM	#10
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	So how old was Maeglin when they went to Gondolin? I know my perspective on this issue really twists my views on it, because the way I see it, Eol was being overly possesive of Aredhel and Maeglin. Aredhel, and Maeglin, as I think he was old enough then, should have had their free will, etc. But if I were to look at it taking into consideration the culture and time, as I must do, then Eol's over-possesiveness of his wife and son (perhaps comparable to Feanor and his Silmarils?) seems a little less...horrible...to me. But not enough that I would be too forgiving of him, and I would say he is a villain, of sorts. And, again from my perspective, seen through the clouded glass of our 'modern' society, I think that no one should be able to choose life or death for someone other than themselves. Of course, in Gondolin, then, the laws were different. Er. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

08-17-2002, 03:53 AM	#11
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'm sorry, but I just cannot place Eol even in the same boat as Feanor. Yes, I think he was misguided, but I think it's a bit of a leap to try and brand him as evil. He simply doesn't meet the criteria. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-17-2002, 03:56 AM	#12
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Think if he had done his deeds to you. How would you feel? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

08-17-2002, 04:06 AM	#13
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	What? married me, gave me a son, then got mad becasue I ran off with the kids to my brother in-law's house where my Brother in-law wants to kill me before he'll let me leave? Hell I can't say I blame the guy, but I'd have thrown the damned spear at Turgon, and chuckled when she dove in front of it. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

08-17-2002, 04:11 AM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Ensnaring, and entrapping DOES NOT make someone evil. EG, I don't get you. You think that Feanor isn't evil, but Eol is?! Sorry, but where's the reasoning in that? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-17-2002, 04:12 AM	#18
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	So he was the first guy to take advantage of a lost woman? The first guy to even lie to a woman, or cnchant or charm a woman? Hell at least he married her, instead of kicking her out and giving her cab fare. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

08-17-2002, 04:13 AM	#19
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	vil·lain Pronunciation Key (vln) n. A wicked or evil person; a scoundrel. A dramatic or fictional character who is typically at odds with the hero. (also vln, v-ln) Variant of villein. Something said to be the cause of particular trouble or an evil: poverty, the villain in the increase of crime. Obsolete. A peasant regarded as vile and brutish. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.