Celebrimbor or Gil-galad as high king!!!!!

[Valtir]

Gil-Galad all the way. The House of Fingolfin acquited itself well despite the Doom of the Noldor, and Gil is no exception.

Celebrimbor, on the other hand, shares much of the flaws of the House of Feanor, and his cozying up to Annatar is but the shining example.

In many ways, Celebrimbor is the patsy of the entire second and third ages, allowing the Rings to be crafted and used to pervert much of Middle Earth.

[jammi567]

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.

[Valtir]

Originally Posted by jammi567

he wasn't being a 'patsy'. he was being a reble, just like grandad was.

Melkor tweaked Feanor (and others) enough to cause a massive rift between the Noldor and the Valar. Sauron fooled Celembrimbor into creating the rings, leading to ages of strife and struggle. While it cannot be said Celembrimbor intentionally did evil, his actions certainly led to it. He got played, due to his lust for power and glory.

Gil-Galad on the other hand had no such failings.

[jammi567]

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by jammi567

exept for waiting for half the third age to tell the numenorians what the hell they were fighting for. and thus allowing 9 of their lords to become nazgul.

all the Nazgul weren't Numenorians. only 3 were. Khamul was an Easterling

[jammi567]

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by jammi567

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.

but Sauron was so charming! how could you NOT be seduced?!

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by jammi567

thanks for correcting me. the point is, they still allowed three of their allies to be seduced by the person they were fighting against.

The numenoreans rulers gave less and less heed to whatever the elves had to say, eventually oppressing their open supporters. Also, Sauron started attacking the numenoreans after he recruited his stupid lieutenants:

Originally Posted by Akallabeth, Silmarillion

Now he learned that the kings of Numenor had increased hi power and splendour, and he hated them the more; and he feared them, lest they should invade his lands and wrest from him the dominion of the East. But for a long time he did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race. And when the Ulairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Numenoreans upon the shores of the sea.

[jammi567]

yeah, but at the time the rings of powers were handed out, the numenorians were still friends to the elves. i mean, look what they'd just rescued them from. saurons ever increasing power.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by jammi567

yeah, but at the time the rings of powers were handed out, the numenorians were still friends to the elves. i mean, look what they'd just rescued them from. saurons ever increasing power.

The nazgul appeared during the reign of Tar Atanamir - who gave little if any heed to the warnings of the Messengers (most likely elves too); at this time the division in Numenor also appears.

Sauron kept his plans secret, therefore the handing over of the rings was not known, so no specific warning was possible to start with. On the other hand, the thirst for power that was building in those three numenoreans would have blinded their reason, even if there was some sort of a general warning.

[jammi567]

Yeah, but a general anouncement once they finished the war "we were fighting over some magic rings. if anyone tries to give you a ring, don't accept it".

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Yeah, but a general anouncement once they finished the war "we were fighting over some magic rings. if anyone tries to give you a ring, don't accept it".

Funny but true

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

My vote goes for Gil-Galad.

[Gordis]

Jammy was SOO right!

I vote against both. The Elves don't deserve a High King.

[The Telcontarion]

Celebrimbor is the one true king, period.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Celebrimbor was senior to Erenion Gil Galad under any of the patterns of kingship descent I am familiar with, from primogenitor to the brother to brother to nephew type of the Anlgo Saxons, with Salic Law or non Salic law. It is a heavy question as to why he was not High King after the end of the the War of the Great Jewels and the pardon of the Noldor. I suspect it is tied up with why he led many Noldor into a separate enclave in Eregion after the war. I believe it is the remaining racial and political animosity between the Feanorians and the Sindar most imporantly, but also the with the Laequendi and the other Noldor. The preponderating majority of the population of the remaining and very blended Belriand kingdom, Lindon, were Sindar and Laequnendi, and they would not acept a Feanorian king. The aminosity between the Feanorians and them, and the other Noldor, led to the few remaining Feanorians packing up and leaving for new lands, but the centeo of Eldarian power remained with the vastly larger Beleriandic population of Lindon.
The best consistant rule I could discern with for the "High Kingship" is which prince clearly wielded the greatest military power, and Gil Galad had many times that of Celebrimbor. The 'High Kingship" in Middle Earth had become first and formost a a military power postion, and it was Gil Galad who held that power, as it had previously been Fingolfin, than Fingon, then Turgon.

[ASmileThatExplodes]

I vote for Gil-Galad.. I sympathise more with him than with Celebrimbor. But maybe that has to do with the fact that I absolutely don't like the House of Fëanor and my big love for the Valar. :')