the original breaking of the fellowship

Vardasoroniel · 03-11-2002, 04:01 AM

i am just re-reading the silmarillion, and was struck by a section in the 'valaquenta':

". . . Among them Nine were of chief power and residence; but one is removed from their number and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. . . ."

Melkor(Morgoth), of course, is the one removed - his downfall brought on by his own self-pride and greed turning eventually to complete evil. "He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness."

these passages started me thinking about the fellowship of the 9 in the LOTR, and especially about Boromir. I was wondering if this fellowship of the third age was a re-cycling of the original 'fellowship', and if by extension, there would be one more moment of grace for Morgoth and a possibility for redemption as seen in Boromir's recanting of his selfish actions which stirred up trouble and grief for the other members of the LOTR fellowship.

what do you think?

afro-elf · 03-11-2002, 04:22 AM

don't have much to add but it is an interesting thought

Findegil · 03-11-2002, 08:45 AM

Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar.

Regards
Findegil

Elf Girl · 03-11-2002, 09:32 AM

This is a little philosophical, but...Maybe that's what Morgoth did to Middle-Earth. He made the free peoples doomed to repeat this loop over and over again, and Boromir's death was a triumph, because he repented.

Ararax · 03-11-2002, 11:51 AM

Well history repetes its self in more ways then one

Ñólendil · 03-11-2002, 12:13 PM

So is Sam Gamgee Mandos?

Vardasoroniel · 03-11-2002, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Findegil
Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar.

yes, he did not relent then, but i was thinking more of the cycle of repeating mythos as an extended spiral that turns upon itself, round and round, but never closes itself off. wondering, then, if the account of eru and the valar and their relationship to the harmony of themselves and their created universe might cycle around again in a new creation and a new universe (after all, there is all that VOID to work with) in which melkor has an epiphany and repents.

is that even a possibility? or did his descent into Darkness & Discord drive all the light and harmony from him?

Vardasoroniel · 03-11-2002, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
So is Sam Gamgee Mandos?

i wasn't thinking of an exact, 1:1 correlation between the individual valar/valier and the LOTR members.

Ararax · 03-11-2002, 01:20 PM

id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn

Vardasoroniel · 03-11-2002, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ararax
id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn

if i had to draw direct parallels about the 9 and the 9 - i might do it this way:

Manwe ----- Gandalf
Ulmo -------- Frodo
Mandos ---- Aragorn
Varda ------ Legolas
Aule -------- Gimli
Yavanna -- Sam
Nienna ----- Pippin
Orome ----- Merry

Ararax · 03-11-2002, 01:49 PM

i like that comparison very nice

Ñólendil · 03-11-2002, 08:09 PM

I was only half-heartedly making fun of the idea. I am actually interested in the parallels between the Fellowship and the Aratar.

I like your comparisons too, only I don't Pippin really goes with Nienna. Gandalf or Frodo would be more fitting, though Frodo is good "as" Ulmo and Gandalf "as" Manwe (Gandalf in fact served Manwe and Varda). But it is probably the best that can be done. Frodo could be put with Nienna and Legolas with Ulmo too, but this leaves Pippin with Varda.

Ararax · 03-11-2002, 10:24 PM

who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him

Wayfarer · 03-11-2002, 10:28 PM

Quote:

is that even a possibility? or did his descent into Darkness & Discord drive all the light and harmony from him?

Not all. But he slowly became more corrupt until he was cast out, and there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't continue.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-11-2002, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ararax
who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him

Aule.

markedel · 03-11-2002, 11:01 PM

No one is all evil, at least not in Tolkien's world. In Catholicism (as I understand it, as I'm not Catholic) you can always find redemption.

Renille · 03-13-2002, 12:08 AM

Yeps, you're right Markedel. I am a Catholic, and we do believe that God always gives people second, third, millionth chances if they are truly seeking forgiveness.

With the Pippin/Nienna thing... I almost think Pippin could be Orome and Merry could be Nienna. Merry's alot more serious and melencholy than Pip. ( On the side, wasn't Nessa one of the Valar, also? Or was she a Maia? I can't remember.)

Ñólendil · 03-13-2002, 01:31 AM

There are six Valar not listed here: Vairë the Weaver, Estë the Healer, Lórien Master of Visions and Dreams, Vána the Everyoung, Tulkas and Nessa. But there were 8 chiefs of the Valar (nine counting Melkor), who are called the Aratar: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Nienna and Orome.

Cirdan · 03-13-2002, 03:15 AM

I'm preety sure Melkor is the embodiment of evil just so it has a name. Either that or he was suffering from painful itching and swelling.

Ulmo was, at first, swayed by Melkor, but later proved the most active of the Valar. Frodo is a symbol of innocence and purity. Resisting the ring became overwhelming, and but for gollum, who knows how it may have ended (except JRRT).

Dwarven Sen · 03-13-2002, 10:00 AM

Look I have read the books and I see where you are coming from but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo basically because ulmo is great and frodo is irritating i'm sorry to offend you but thats how i feel surely aragorn would be more ulmo being of numenorean descent and i also apologise for my punctuation or rarther lack of it

03-11-2002, 04:01 AM	#1
Vardasoroniel Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: misty oregon Posts: 95	the breaking of the original fellowship i am just re-reading the silmarillion, and was struck by a section in the 'valaquenta': ". . . Among them Nine were of chief power and residence; but one is removed from their number and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. . . ." Melkor(Morgoth), of course, is the one removed - his downfall brought on by his own self-pride and greed turning eventually to complete evil. "He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness." these passages started me thinking about the fellowship of the 9 in the LOTR, and especially about Boromir. I was wondering if this fellowship of the third age was a re-cycling of the original 'fellowship', and if by extension, there would be one more moment of grace for Morgoth and a possibility for redemption as seen in Boromir's recanting of his selfish actions which stirred up trouble and grief for the other members of the LOTR fellowship. what do you think? __________________ Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! Last edited by Vardasoroniel : 03-11-2002 at 04:20 AM.

03-11-2002, 04:22 AM	#2
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	don't have much to add but it is an interesting thought __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-11-2002, 09:32 AM	#4
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	This is a little philosophical, but...Maybe that's what Morgoth did to Middle-Earth. He made the free peoples doomed to repeat this loop over and over again, and Boromir's death was a triumph, because he repented. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

03-11-2002, 11:51 AM	#5
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	Well history repetes its self in more ways then one __________________ Woah Deep

03-11-2002, 12:13 PM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	So is Sam Gamgee Mandos? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-11-2002, 08:45 AM	#3
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Well, when you read Myths Transformed in The History of Middle-Earth volume 10 Morgoth's Ring you will find that Melkor had a chance to reconcile with the Valar. The trembling point was at the end of the war of powers when he discovered, that he was no longer able to daunt Manwe with his eyes. But in contrast to Boromir Melkor did not relent. He sticked to his way of terror and war and only feigned piece and friendship to the Valar. Regards Findegil

03-11-2002, 01:20 PM	#9
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	id say mandros would be gandalf or aragorn __________________ Woah Deep

03-11-2002, 01:49 PM	#11
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	i like that comparison very nice __________________ Woah Deep

03-11-2002, 08:09 PM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I was only half-heartedly making fun of the idea. I am actually interested in the parallels between the Fellowship and the Aratar. I like your comparisons too, only I don't Pippin really goes with Nienna. Gandalf or Frodo would be more fitting, though Frodo is good "as" Ulmo and Gandalf "as" Manwe (Gandalf in fact served Manwe and Varda). But it is probably the best that can be done. Frodo could be put with Nienna and Legolas with Ulmo too, but this leaves Pippin with Varda. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-11-2002, 10:24 PM	#13
Ararax Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NEW JERSEY! Posts: 375	who created the dwarves though i think gimil would be best suited with him __________________ Woah Deep

03-11-2002, 11:01 PM	#16
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	No one is all evil, at least not in Tolkien's world. In Catholicism (as I understand it, as I'm not Catholic) you can always find redemption. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-13-2002, 12:08 AM	#17
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	Yeps, you're right Markedel. I am a Catholic, and we do believe that God always gives people second, third, millionth chances if they are truly seeking forgiveness. With the Pippin/Nienna thing... I almost think Pippin could be Orome and Merry could be Nienna. Merry's alot more serious and melencholy than Pip. ( On the side, wasn't Nessa one of the Valar, also? Or was she a Maia? I can't remember.) __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

03-13-2002, 01:31 AM	#18
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	There are six Valar not listed here: Vairë the Weaver, Estë the Healer, Lórien Master of Visions and Dreams, Vána the Everyoung, Tulkas and Nessa. But there were 8 chiefs of the Valar (nine counting Melkor), who are called the Aratar: Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Mandos, Nienna and Orome. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-13-2002, 03:15 AM	#19
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	I'm preety sure Melkor is the embodiment of evil just so it has a name. Either that or he was suffering from painful itching and swelling. Ulmo was, at first, swayed by Melkor, but later proved the most active of the Valar. Frodo is a symbol of innocence and purity. Resisting the ring became overwhelming, and but for gollum, who knows how it may have ended (except JRRT). __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-13-2002, 10:00 AM	#20
Dwarven Sen Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Edinburgh University Library Posts: 410	Look I have read the books and I see where you are coming from but i just don't think frodo is a good ulmo basically because ulmo is great and frodo is irritating i'm sorry to offend you but thats how i feel surely aragorn would be more ulmo being of numenorean descent and i also apologise for my punctuation or rarther lack of it __________________ Destroy the dementors not the demented. Dont heckle the supervillain Note to Self: Remember that sarcasm is hard to detect from text. What ever you do, don't click this link! my LJ

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR	Wally	Lord of the Rings Movies	425	08-14-2016 08:43 AM
Descendents of the Fellowship	Dreran the Green	RPG Forum	202	10-13-2003 10:32 PM
breaking of the fellowship.	Reumandar	Lord of the Rings Books	13	09-21-2002 07:58 PM
Concerning The Breaking of the Fellowship	SamwiseGamgeeOTS	Lord of the Rings Movies	21	08-29-2002 03:04 PM
Breaking of the Fellowship	Harad	Lord of the Rings Books	67	04-25-2002 11:53 AM