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11-01-2003, 11:35 PM
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#1 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Lost in Time?
From The Hobbit: Flies and Spiders
Quote:
The answer of course can be found in the Book of Lost Tales II: The Tale of the Nauglafring, in which HĂşrin (kind of) brings the treasure of Nargothrond to Doriath (Artanor) and because Thingol (Tinwelint) is a poor woodland Elf King, he uses the dwarves as the smiths of this treasure. The chapter Of the Ruin of Doriath, has been edited heavily by CT based on several ideas as how to resolve certain problems, such as where Thingol died, and how. My question to you is this: Do you think that being The Hobbit a published book by JRRT, that CT should have taken the working of the gold and silver by the dwarves and included it in his version of the Silmarillion?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-02-2003, 12:49 AM
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#2 |
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Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
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"In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay"
________________________________________________ Well, While the Doriath/dwarf connection is common knowledge, I somehow missed the clear reference above to shaping raw gold and silver. This seems to me to make it canon and CT in error in ignoring it. However, the people working on the Silmarillion project should probably be consulted, since they seem quite knowledgable in such affairs related to the first age. (For my part I haven't been able yet to work myself up to gettting into such works as Home). Biography, Letters, and Unfinished Tales are quite enough for the time being, given work and other calls on ones time.
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Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 11-02-2003 at 10:32 AM. |
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11-02-2003, 01:38 AM
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#3 |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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I'm not looking for a canonical answer to the question really. CT had basically 3 texts to work in the making of that Chapter: The Wanderings of HĂşrin, Tale of the Nauglafring and the Quenta Noldorinwa.
The "Wanderings" (which is the latest) unfortunately does not reach the part when HĂşrin comes to Doriath, so we have only the "Tale" and the "Quenta". In both of those texts, there is the broken promise of reward by Thingol because of their labours. CT in the making of that chapter in the Published Silmarillion omitted the bringing of the Nargothrond hoard to Menegroth, thereby removing the request and reward for their labours of working with the gold, and it was replaced by the merging of the NauglamĂ*r (which in the Published Silmarillion was made by the dwarves to Finrod Felagund) with the Silmaril. I'm asking for people opinions on this matter. Is the material in The Hobbit sufficient enough to reintroduce the hoard of Nargothrond in a Revised Ruin of Doriath?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-02-2003, 01:53 PM
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#4 |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with FĂ«anor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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It still looks like you're asking for canon, but then asking for people's opinion is basically the same thing since everyone seem to have their own canon.
 I would answer yes, because as you said, The Hobbit was published by JRRT, and The Hobbit and the Quenta was the last texts JRRT wrote on the matter. I'm intrigued on why you're asking this question.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 11-02-2003 at 02:12 PM. |
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11-02-2003, 03:48 PM
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#5 |
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Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
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I think he is trying to write a revised version of it.
My vote is "yes."  |
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11-02-2003, 04:21 PM
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#6 | |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with FĂ«anor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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Quote:
Why Maedhros?
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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11-02-2003, 06:20 PM
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#7 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-03-2003, 04:52 AM
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#8 | |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with FĂ«anor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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You asked
Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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11-03-2003, 05:45 AM
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#9 |
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Mootis per forum
Administrator 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Spain
Posts: 61,439
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I think Maedhros with "sufficient" is referring to the inconsistences that exists between The Hobbit and the rest of the canonical (
 ) books.I would respond yes and no. There's no problem with a little inconsistence in TH as this, because it was wrote by Bilbo Baggins, who had heard the story (different accounts) from a group of wood elves and some dwarves, and probaby had transformed it to make it more impressive for his (doubtous) hobbit audience.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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