Dale, Woodmen and the Beornings...

Durin1 · 08-19-2003, 03:46 AM

Every once in a while, I like to take a different perspective when looking at LoTR and The Hobbit. I am probably in a minority but I wish that more stories could have been written about the northern group of Edain living east of the misty mountains.

We mainly hear about them in The Hobbit (or at least a few references) and a little in LoTR, but not enough to satiate my appetite.

In my opinion, although they do not have the noble "history" of the Dunedain, i believe that they probably built a more advanced civilisation than those in Gondor and Rohan, owing to the fact that they were merchants and traders.

Does any one else feel as they would liked to have heard more about Dale etc?

afro-elf · 08-19-2003, 07:24 AM

Welcome to the 'moot Durin1.
I agree I wish there were more tales but, I disagree that there culture was higher than that of Gondor. Rohan maybe. The only I could agree on the fomer is if you mean the pre-Dunedain civilization of Gondor.

Durin1 · 08-19-2003, 08:18 AM

I agree in the sense that the Dunedain were obviously more advanced (in the technological sense), but what I mean is that the civilisation of Dale and Esgaroth seem to be more "modern".

To me the Gondorians represent a more archaic way of life (possibly as a result of living in a frontier society), whereas the Dalians seem to have developed a systen of living which is not too far removed from what we would see in real life - inns, fireworks, trade etc. When we get a glimpse of Minas Tirith, for example in LoTR, they do not seem to have incorporated many of these things into their culture. They seem to try to preserve much of the way they had previously lived without moving forward; they appear to me to be very insular.

Then again, I may still be totally wrong!

***Fat middle*** · 08-19-2003, 08:27 AM

Good thoughts there Durin1, and welcome to the moot!

However, i think that if we want to compare Dale with Gondor as we know them from TH and LOTR we must be careful. TH tells things as seen by the first hobbit that dared to venture into the great world. As Bilbo wrote his book he probably tended to exaggerate things because he was very impressed by them and wanted to impressed a (possible) hobbit reader.

Bombadillo · 08-19-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Durin1
I agree in the sense that the Dunedain were obviously more advanced (in the technological sense), but what I mean is that the civilisation of Dale and Esgaroth seem to be more "modern".

To me the Gondorians represent a more archaic way of life (possibly as a result of living in a frontier society), whereas the Dalians seem to have developed a systen of living which is not too far removed from what we would see in real life - inns, fireworks, trade etc. When we get a glimpse of Minas Tirith, for example in LoTR, they do not seem to have incorporated many of these things into their culture. They seem to try to preserve much of the way they had previously lived without moving forward; they appear to me to be very insular.

Then again, I may still be totally wrong!

I think you're entirely right. And although I never really cared before, I wish Tolkien had written a separate peice about Dale or Esgaroth. Of course it wouldn't relate to LotR, because they're isolated (from the storyline) for the most part. Esgaroth Upon the Lake has always been my favorite Tolkien place, so I wouldn't mind seeing how they live there.

nazgul prince · 08-19-2003, 05:03 PM

Wat is the difference between The beorings and the woodmen? I always thought that after the battle of five armies Beorn became the cheif of all the woodmen hence>>>>> THE BEORNINGS.And why didn't any of the woodmen fight at the battle of five armies?

afro-elf · 08-20-2003, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Dalians seem to have developed a systen of living which is not too far removed from what we would see in real life - inns, fireworks, trade etc.

In may be just the time of the tales When we are at Minas Tirith it is was city preparing for a siege. In the Appendices IIRC there is talk of trade.

What I find interesting is that the Shire and Laketown have elected officals. Beorning had leaders but, I do not know if they were elected or not. Grimbeorn was the son or grandson of Beorn but, I do not know ho he came to power.

Dale had a king.

***azalea*** · 08-24-2003, 02:56 PM

I finished reading Queer Lodgings to my husband last night, and here's something I find interesting re: the Beornings -- unless I've forgotten, the 14 companions don't see any more bears (aside from Beorn himself) the rest of the journey, nor did they before that. However, in that chapter it details about how many bear tracks were seen around the place the next day, and that they would have come from every direction except from the west. It just struck me as funny that they wouldn't have seen any despite there being so many in the wild lands there (or maybe it just isn't mentioned that they did).
Also, I wonder how all those bears dancing in the moonlight would have looked -- and how did the dances go? Hmmm.
Oh, also it describes the honey cakes Beorn gives them as being tasty, lasting a long time, and only needing a little to fill one up -- sound familiar to anyone?

So was Beorn making lembas, or just something w/ similar properties?

ArwenEvenstar · 09-01-2003, 08:09 PM

I think that it might be a different version of lembas more like cram though. Man I would love to eat those (lembas and Beorns cakes). That would be so yummy

Athelwinde · 09-04-2003, 04:47 AM

Concerning the original question by Durin1, I'd definetely want to hear more about the Dalemen and other Northmen. At least from what I've studied, the Northmen were not really Edain. Edain were only the 3 tribes that crossed the Ered Luin in the First Age. But it does say they were remotely related to the Dunedain, so my guess is that in the beggining of men, they split into Easterling, and Wester(lings?) and then the Edain went over the Ered Luin, and the remaining "Westerlings" became the Northmen.

Though, I wonder where the Forochel people come from??

nazgul prince · 09-04-2003, 07:46 PM

I thought some of the Edain refused to journey to numenore.They migrated back over the misty mountains,and mix and mingled with the (westerlings) Northmen>>>>>>> which later became the rohirrim,People of dale,woodmen and beornings.

Athelwinde · 09-06-2003, 10:43 AM

That could be true also, I'll have to do my research again.

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-13-2004, 09:06 PM

About Durin 1's interest in more tales of Dale, what about the end of the Master of Dale and where he was going with the gold?

Quote:

The old Master had come to a bad end. Bard had given him much gold for the help of the Lake-people, but beinmg iof the kind that easily catches such disease he fell under the dragon-sickness, and took most of the gold and fled with it, and died of starvation in the Waste, deserted by his companions.

Robert Foster (in "the complete guide to Middle-earth") speculates The Waste might be The Desolation Of Smaug. Why would he go there? Was he heading East, perhaps down the River Running on a boat (gold's heavy)? Or he could have circled Mirkwood and used the money to buy a nice, comfy inn at, say, Bree.

Or maybe go to the big city at Minas Tirith, say, buy a title and some land from Denethor.

ArwenEvenstar · 01-15-2004, 09:27 PM

Does it say what the old Masters name was? Who knows maybe he killed the real Denethor and took over Gondor . . .

Thorin II · 01-17-2004, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
Does it say what the old Masters name was? Who knows maybe he killed the real Denethor and took over Gondor . . .

If so, he did a great job of tricking Boromir and Faramir.

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-17-2004, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Thorin II
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar
Does it say what the old Masters name was? Who knows maybe he killed the real Denethor and took over Gondor . . .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If so, he did a great job of tricking Boromir and Faramir.
_______________________________________________

Of course, that would explain movie Denethor.

08-19-2003, 03:46 AM	#1
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	Dale, Woodmen and the Beornings... Every once in a while, I like to take a different perspective when looking at LoTR and The Hobbit. I am probably in a minority but I wish that more stories could have been written about the northern group of Edain living east of the misty mountains. We mainly hear about them in The Hobbit (or at least a few references) and a little in LoTR, but not enough to satiate my appetite. In my opinion, although they do not have the noble "history" of the Dunedain, i believe that they probably built a more advanced civilisation than those in Gondor and Rohan, owing to the fact that they were merchants and traders. Does any one else feel as they would liked to have heard more about Dale etc? __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

08-19-2003, 07:24 AM	#2
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Welcome to the 'moot Durin1. I agree I wish there were more tales but, I disagree that there culture was higher than that of Gondor. Rohan maybe. The only I could agree on the fomer is if you mean the pre-Dunedain civilization of Gondor. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

08-19-2003, 08:18 AM	#3
Durin1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 221	I agree in the sense that the Dunedain were obviously more advanced (in the technological sense), but what I mean is that the civilisation of Dale and Esgaroth seem to be more "modern". To me the Gondorians represent a more archaic way of life (possibly as a result of living in a frontier society), whereas the Dalians seem to have developed a systen of living which is not too far removed from what we would see in real life - inns, fireworks, trade etc. When we get a glimpse of Minas Tirith, for example in LoTR, they do not seem to have incorporated many of these things into their culture. They seem to try to preserve much of the way they had previously lived without moving forward; they appear to me to be very insular. Then again, I may still be totally wrong! __________________ Durin the Sleepless!

08-19-2003, 08:27 AM	#4
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	Good thoughts there Durin1, and welcome to the moot! However, i think that if we want to compare Dale with Gondor as we know them from TH and LOTR we must be careful. TH tells things as seen by the first hobbit that dared to venture into the great world. As Bilbo wrote his book he probably tended to exaggerate things because he was very impressed by them and wanted to impressed a (possible) hobbit reader. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

09-01-2003, 08:09 PM	#9
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	I think that it might be a different version of lembas more like cram though. Man I would love to eat those (lembas and Beorns cakes). That would be so yummy __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

08-19-2003, 05:03 PM	#6
nazgul prince Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 58	Wat is the difference between The beorings and the woodmen? I always thought that after the battle of five armies Beorn became the cheif of all the woodmen hence>>>>> THE BEORNINGS.And why didn't any of the woodmen fight at the battle of five armies?

08-24-2003, 02:56 PM	#8
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I finished reading Queer Lodgings to my husband last night, and here's something I find interesting re: the Beornings -- unless I've forgotten, the 14 companions don't see any more bears (aside from Beorn himself) the rest of the journey, nor did they before that. However, in that chapter it details about how many bear tracks were seen around the place the next day, and that they would have come from every direction except from the west. It just struck me as funny that they wouldn't have seen any despite there being so many in the wild lands there (or maybe it just isn't mentioned that they did). Also, I wonder how all those bears dancing in the moonlight would have looked -- and how did the dances go? Hmmm. Oh, also it describes the honey cakes Beorn gives them as being tasty, lasting a long time, and only needing a little to fill one up -- sound familiar to anyone? So was Beorn making lembas, or just something w/ similar properties?

09-04-2003, 04:47 AM	#10
Athelwinde Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Somewhere... Posts: 15	Concerning the original question by Durin1, I'd definetely want to hear more about the Dalemen and other Northmen. At least from what I've studied, the Northmen were not really Edain. Edain were only the 3 tribes that crossed the Ered Luin in the First Age. But it does say they were remotely related to the Dunedain, so my guess is that in the beggining of men, they split into Easterling, and Wester(lings?) and then the Edain went over the Ered Luin, and the remaining "Westerlings" became the Northmen. Though, I wonder where the Forochel people come from??

09-04-2003, 07:46 PM	#11
nazgul prince Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 58	I thought some of the Edain refused to journey to numenore.They migrated back over the misty mountains,and mix and mingled with the (westerlings) Northmen>>>>>>> which later became the rohirrim,People of dale,woodmen and beornings.

09-06-2003, 10:43 AM	#12
Athelwinde Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Somewhere... Posts: 15	That could be true also, I'll have to do my research again.

01-15-2004, 09:27 PM	#14
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	Does it say what the old Masters name was? Who knows maybe he killed the real Denethor and took over Gondor . . . __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

01-17-2004, 09:22 PM	#16
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Thorin II -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by ArwenEvenstar Does it say what the old Masters name was? Who knows maybe he killed the real Denethor and took over Gondor . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- If so, he did a great job of tricking Boromir and Faramir. _______________________________________________ Of course, that would explain movie Denethor. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!