Abortion II

[Tessar]

The original Abortion thread can be found here: http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11539

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Women are entitled to the exclusive use of their own bodies, without parasitic growths being forced upon them.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I see your sound bite, and I raise you a sound bite:

Human parasitic growths have a right to be given a chance at life.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Women are entitled to the exclusive use of their own bodies, without parasitic growths being forced upon them.

Are you talking about rape?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I see your sound bite, and I raise you a sound bite:

Human parasitic growths have a right to be given a chance at life.

Fine. Volunteers for gestation, go for it.

If you had done it, you wouldn't be so glib about the task.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Are you talking about rape?

No, rape isn't the only issue. I want women to be pregnant when they want to, and not other times. But a variety of things go into women becoming pregnant, and all of those things need work. Men have limited responsibility, even in 'intact' families it winds up her responsibility, and the impact is on the children and all the community.

Abortion is a tough choice. But I believe we need it as a choice.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I rethink my opinions constantly, although that doesn't mean they actually change. What if I'm wrong, well what of it? If you're right, then I'll face the consequences one day. If you're wrong, then I'm not likely to know ever whether I was right or wrong. What if? What if anything? I can only go on to the best of my knowledge.

I didn't mean to threaten you with eternal judgment. My point was that if you're wrong, you'll have supported the mass genocide of babies. Because I know you want to do what's right, the consequences of error should give you enormous pause before coming to the conclusion that abortion is valid. It should make you extremely tentative because even if many women suffer socially, economically and physically when giving birth to babies they don't want, this is nowhere near sufficient justification for the mass extermination of innocent people.

Whether or not you're going to be judged shouldn't be your main concern. Looking at the matter in those terms only is selfish. The point is, if I'm wrong about this, then millions of women suffer (though there are plenty of adoption agencies that are open to more babies, and I'm fine with raising taxes as much as is necessary to provide more support to single mothers). If you're wrong, then millions of babies die. Mass murder is far, far more grave an issue than that of some women's economic wellbeing.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Advanced brains, advanced social structures and self-awareness. Oh, and they're my species, selfishly antropocentric, but there it is.

That's so artificial. It's like calculating the utility of a machine. Humans are more than that.

What do you do with the insane, or the retarded? Still advanced, but less advanced, so do they deserve conditions of the same quality as the rest of humanity? Or what do you do with aged people who are getting senile or slow in the mind and rely on other people to take care of them? Do they deserve the same treatment as the rest of humanity?

You open up the doors to a lot of disturbing questions if you allow the extermination of fetuses on the grounds that they don't fulfill your above requirements for value.

[Curufin]

No, rape isn't the only issue. I want women to be pregnant when they want to, and not other times. But a variety of things go into women becoming pregnant, and all of those things need work. Men have limited responsibility, even in 'intact' families it winds up her responsibility, and the impact is on the children and all the community.

Abortion is a tough choice. But I believe we need it as a choice.

I agree completely.

And before anti-choice advocates keep going on about adoption as if it were the gold at the end of the rainbow, let me tell you a story about adoption. My father was abandoned at the age of five. His oldest sister, who was nine at the time, was left to take care of the child for six months. Alone. His grandparents, who lived close, did nothing except take the children to get them baptised. Yes, they left four children alone in a house under the supervision of a 9 year old girl, but at least they were baptised. :roll:

Finally, protective services found them and put them up for adoption. My father was physically abused, emotionally abused, and raped repeatedly in foster care. Fifty years later, he is still suffering from these abuses. I'm not saying that it would have been better if he had been aborted, but I do get tired of hearing people say 'oh, they can just give the baby up for adoption' as if that somehow means that the baby is therefore going to have a wonderful and perfect life with wonderful and loving parents.

Every child has the right to be a wanted child. I get very tired of these anti-choice people who care so much about this baby - right up to the moment it's born.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I agree completely.

And before anti-choice advocates keep going on about adoption as if it were the gold at the end of the rainbow, let me tell you a story about adoption. My father was abandoned at the age of five. His oldest sister, who was nine at the time, was left to take care of the child for six months. Alone. His grandparents, who lived close, did nothing except take the children to get them baptised. Yes, they left four children alone in a house under the supervision of a 9 year old girl, but at least they were baptised. :roll:

Finally, protective services found them and put them up for adoption. My father was physically abused, emotionally abused, and raped repeatedly in foster care. Fifty years later, he is still suffering from these abuses. I'm not saying that it would have been better if he had been aborted, but I do get tired of hearing people say 'oh, they can just give the baby up for adoption' as if that somehow means that the baby is therefore going to have a wonderful and perfect life with wonderful and loving parents.

Every child has the right to be a wanted child. I get very tired of these anti-choice people who care so much about this baby - right up to the moment it's born.

I'm truly sorry about what happened to your father .

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I didn't mean to threaten you with eternal judgment. My point was that if you're wrong, you'll have supported the mass genocide of babies. Because I know you want to do what's right, the consequences of error should give you enormous pause before coming to the conclusion that abortion is valid. It should make you extremely tentative because even if many women suffer socially, economically and physically when giving birth to babies they don't want, this is nowhere near sufficient justification for the mass extermination of innocent people.

Whether or not you're going to be judged shouldn't be your main concern. Looking at the matter in those terms only is selfish. The point is, if I'm wrong about this, then millions of women suffer (though there are plenty of adoption agencies that are open to more babies, and I'm fine with raising taxes as much as is necessary to provide more support to single mothers). If you're wrong, then millions of babies die. Mass murder is far, far more grave an issue than that of some women's economic wellbeing.

That's so artificial. It's like calculating the utility of a machine. Humans are more than that.

What do you do with the insane, or the retarded? Still advanced, but less advanced, so do they deserve conditions of the same quality as the rest of humanity? Or what do you do with aged people who are getting senile or slow in the mind and rely on other people to take care of them? Do they deserve the same treatment as the rest of humanity?

You open up the doors to a lot of disturbing questions if you allow the extermination of fetuses on the grounds that they don't fulfill your above requirements for value.

Isn't this a double post?

Originally Posted by Curufin

I agree completely.

And before anti-choice advocates keep going on about adoption as if it were the gold at the end of the rainbow, let me tell you a story about adoption. My father was abandoned at the age of five. His oldest sister, who was nine at the time, was left to take care of the child for six months. Alone. His grandparents, who lived close, did nothing except take the children to get them baptised. Yes, they left four children alone in a house under the supervision of a 9 year old girl, but at least they were baptised. :roll:

Finally, protective services found them and put them up for adoption. My father was physically abused, emotionally abused, and raped repeatedly in foster care. Fifty years later, he is still suffering from these abuses. I'm not saying that it would have been better if he had been aborted, but I do get tired of hearing people say 'oh, they can just give the baby up for adoption' as if that somehow means that the baby is therefore going to have a wonderful and perfect life with wonderful and loving parents.

Every child has the right to be a wanted child. I get very tired of these anti-choice people who care so much about this baby - right up to the moment it's born.

Adoption can be a tough road, too. All sides of it. And foster care...gives new meaning to the word 'imperfect", so often.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Isn't this a double post?

It was the last post in the other abortion thread before Tessar's closing post, so the discussion was moved here and people weren't likely to read it. I didn't want to have wasted the time writing it.

Glad you read it after I posted it there, though .

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

You wasted your time, either way. I object to your reposting.

Unless I may repost freely, in which case, it's fine.

[Tessar]

You can repost all you like. I don't see why you should object .

[Rían]

Are you talking about rape?



(oh, sorry - repost... )

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Women are entitled to the exclusive use of their own bodies, without parasitic growths being forced upon them.

I <3 you so, so much. You know that, right?

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I
Finally, protective services found them and put them up for adoption. My father was physically abused, emotionally abused, and raped repeatedly in foster care. Fifty years later, he is still suffering from these abuses.

I'm sure I've shared this story here before, but here it is again. My half-brother was adopted out because my mother was forced to give him up for adoption. He was sexually abused by his adoptive dad. He then became an abuser himself.

[Lief Erikson]

Look, everyone, does the possibility that someone in the future might be abused by adoptive parents, or might become a criminal, mean that they should be killed?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Are you talking about rape?



(oh, sorry - repost... )

Lol!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Women are entitled to the exclusive use of their own bodies, without parasitic growths being forced upon them.

[Midge]

Hm.. I'm with Rian here. The whole "parasitic growths being forced upon them" thing sounds like you're referring to rape. As long as a woman is willing to have sex, the child isn't "forced". I am never going to have an abortion, even if I am raped and become pregnant from it. However, I can see that aborting a rape child (for lack of a better term) could be the only slightly plausible excuse for having an abortion.

Honestly, women may be entitled to the use of their bodies as they like, but it goes against the grain of the title "woman" to get rid of life that is growing inside of a pregnant belly (however far along). I firmly believe that women just nurture by nature. It severely hurts quite a lot of women psychologically (and sometimes physically) to have an abortion.

I don't want to seem horrible, but just because there are foster parents who abuse the children with whom they are entrusted doesn't mean that everyone does. I can think of at least four families off the top of my head to whom I am close that have foster children and love them like their own children. Everything that happens in life is a gamble. One never knows how events will turn.

I didn't mean to pick on you alone, Sis. Your post was the only one I could see as I was typing.

*light bulb!*
*goes and thanks mother for not aborting her, though she wasn't planned and mother still had a year of school left*

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Midge

However, I can see that aborting a rape child (for lack of a better term) could be the only slightly plausible excuse for having an abortion.

I'm afraid that doesn't fly. How is it OK to kill an innocent person just because they were the result of rape? It wasn't their fault.

mass genocide of babies

If there was mass genocide of knobbly-kneed Scotsmen going on, I would hope that the pro-knobbly-kneed-Scotsman lobby would be a little more active about putting a stop to it than the pro-life lobby is.

My point being that, judging by their behaviour, most of the anti-choice lobby doesn't really believe that an unborn child and a born child are the same thing, in spite of what they say. Either that or they think genocide is a bad thing, to be protested on internet forums, as opposed to setting fire to Parliament.

I've had 3 children and 3 miscarraiges. OK, not personally, but you know what I mean. I've witnessed 3 people emerging into the world and taking their first breath. I've had "high risk" test results from various pre-natal tests, the sort of test that might make you consider abortion, so I've explored a lot of these issues in a very real way.

Throughout I have examined my views on abortion and they haven't changed materially. The only thing that's different is that I now believe much more strongly that there is a massive difference between born and unborn. However, I still think we should be cautious, and that's why I favour 22 weeks as the legal limit.