Girdle of Melian discussion

[Lefty Scaevola]

Girdle of Melian

1. What is it/how does it work?

2. Would it have stopped powerful beings of similar or greater stature than Melian? We have no text suggesting that Morgoth's greater commanders of servant tried to penetrate it or lead froces through it.

3. How did Beren get though it, was their something other than the suggestion of "fate" that led him through it? And, how did Carcharoth penetrated it? Did Beren and Carcharoth have something in common?

[Lefty Scaevola]

On #2. I have serious doubts that it would have stopped a Balrog or other maiar, or a dragon. And I suspect such beings, or the better "singers" (sorcerors) among then could have led an army through. Melain is a GARDENING maia, not a creature of dominating power, heck, she was even unable to stop her elven husband from being a vicious jerk at times. How the heck could her power stop Gothmog Lord of Balrogs or Glaurung Father of Dragons, or Gorthaur the Cruel? Morgoth must have have some stategic or logistgcal reason for not squashing Doriath after the Battle of Un-Numbered Tears, perhaps anticipating the damage the Oath of Feaonor would continue the wreak upon Eldarin relations becasue of the Silmaril in Doriath.

[Draken]

I think it cast a magical mazy mist (with +1 Alliteration Bonus!) around Doriath that would befuddle anyone trying to enter unless they were more powerful than Melian. I'm not sure what the hierarchy for Maia is, but I'm not convinced that a Balrog trumps Melian necessarily. Besides, said Balrog would then find itself alone on the other side with a rather irked nation of elves to deal with.

But the fact that Beren got through indicates it's not just about rank - I think the phrase used was that his "fate" was stronger than Melian's. Whatever THAT may mean.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have a different view of why Beren and Carcharoth got through it. Both them were arlready temporarily crazed, and thus the confusing effect of the girdle was lost upon them.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I don't know why I am standing over here talking to myself.
I think I will go stand over THERE and talk to myself.

[Willow Oran]

I'd think twice before underestimating Melian's power. The first description of her in the Sil is as follows

and among all [Lorien/Irmo's] people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment.

Also worth note is that she is described as being akin to Yavanna.

In all likelihood then, Melian was of equal or higher rank and skill to Sauron when he was still Aulendil and uncorrupted.

Since at this point that corruption had not yet significantly degraded his power or skill, the question is whether or not the passive, misdirectional defenses implied by the maze-like descriptions of the Girdle could be 'brute-forced' by a sufficiently powerful opponent.

Personally, I suspect not - so long as Melian was present in the kingdom and her mind was actively reinforcing those defenses - and my suspicion is supported by the fact that just as Morgoth never managed to invade Doriath, Sauron never managed to take Lothlorien, the eventual home of Melian's former student and Thingol's nephew.

Neither realm relied on enchantment for physical protection - both had elves acting as border guards, soldiers, etc. for that, but the enchantments greatly lessened the danger of those elves needing to fight an overwhelming invasion because you can't invade a place you can't find the pathway in, and both the Girdle of Melian and any copycat enchantments ensured that the kingdoms within them were very hard to find your way into, regardless of whether or not you knew the location.

Regarding the two exceptions:

Beren's entry into Doriath is described as strongly fated, and as something Melian had foreseen, the implication being that she allowed him to find his way in.

Carcaroth most certainly did not have that going for him - rabid werewolves are generally not welcome even if they are fated after all - but he had recently swallowed a Silmaril, which seems to have special guidance properties inherent in its light, since Earendil and Elwing later use it to find their way through the even stronger maze of enchantments surrounding Valinor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

With whatever strength she had to put inot the girdle, it still, as you note, required armies to defend it against some Orcs and other minon level enemies fitlering through it. This does not lend confidence that the more powerful maiar would be stopped at all. We are given no reason in the text why Morgoth never sent a major army under a powerfull leader to attack Doriath, or harrassing forces. We do not know if he was somehow deterred or whether this was some Byzantine policy, like maintaing the obstacle in the middle to inhibit communication and cooperation between the two wings of the Noldor kingdoms.

[Willow Oran]

We are given no reason in the text why Morgoth never sent a major army under a powerfull leader to attack Doriath, or harrassing forces.

After digging through the most snooze worthy chapter of the Silmarillion (Of Beleriand and its Realms) and marking out the borders of Melian's Girdle on the accompanying map, I've discovered a decent argument for why Morgoth couldn't have swept in and overwhelmed Doriath's defenses!

There were mountains in the way. A range full of nasty, haunted mountains and Ungoliant-spawn filled valleys which only Beren was ever desperate enough to cross bordered Doriath directly to the north. Incidentally, the only direct mention of border guards fighting things in defense of Doriath is Beleg and Turin battling on the north marches - guerilla warfare on monster spiders directly on the outer edge of the Girdle?

Every other part of Doriath is bordered by a realm of the Noldor, and even the Sons of Feanor never attacked it until after Thingol was dead and Melian departed.

To sum up: The Girdle of Melian was almost certainly a misdirection style magical defense capable of keeping out all lesser enemies such as giant spiders, orcs, and hostile elves/men/dwarves, though on the northern edge the monsters of Nan Dungotheb were close enough to justify the additional physical defenses.

Morgoth and Sauron probably could have challenged or overwhelmed Melian's power. However, while the Girdle was still in place, they were busy with those pesky Noldor, and even Morgoth knows to be wary of Ungoliant and spawn. By the time those distractions were dealt, Melian would have already departed and Doriath fallen to the second Kinslaying.

So mountains, spiders, aggressive Noldor, and timing have deprived us of the Melian vs. Sauron/Morgoth showdown.

Logically, I think I agree with you that Melian's enchantments would have had a hard time holding up against the full force of Morgoth's will had he attacked directly.

Yet from the Lay of Leithian Canto 2 we've got this bit:

In later days when Morgoth first,
fleeing the Gods, their bondage burst,
and on the mortal lands set feet,
and in the north his mighty seat
founded and fortified, and all
the newborn race of Men were thrall
unto his power, and Elf and Gnome
his slaves or wandered without home,
or scattered fastnesses walled with fear
upraised upon his borders drear,
and each one fell, yet reigned there still
in Doriath beyond his will
Thingol and deathless Melian,
whose magic yet no evil can
that cometh from without surpass.

which rather indicates that Tolkien decided Melian's power level dramatically rather than logically...

[Calandil]

The problem with this explanation is that the political geography in "Of Beleriand and its Realms" is that of the Siege of Angband, and it no longer applies after 455; by the end of 457, the Orcs had "[come] down Sirion in the west and Celon in the east, and ... encompassed Doriath" (p. 156). Although, in the same year, the Haladin had stopped the Orcs from crossing the Teiglin (p. 157), Morgoth continued to hold most of East Beleriand, and his only major threat (Hithlum) had been severely weakened in 462, when Morgoth made a major assault on Hithlum and breached the Ered Wethrin (p. 160); had the Falathrim not "sailed in great strength up the Firth of Drengist", Hithlum would have been conquered. I see no reason why Morgoth could not have sent an army powerful enough to overcome Melian (if he had such an army) through the Gap of Maglor into Himlad, from there following the road west to Iant Iaur and turning south into Doriath.

[Valandil]

Calandil - thanks for reviving this discussion!

I see the "Girdle of Melian" as some combination of mists and plants - maybe more plants - that would inhibit entry by non-Elves into Doriath. Similar to how the Old Forest "guided" travelers where it willed. I think it had more effectiveness against lone travelers, rather than armies or powerful beings. As pointed out above - Doriath was further protected by mountains and spiders to the north, and by Noldorin kingdoms otherwise. And Elven guards may have completed the protection.

I don't think that Beren's fate was greater than Melian's power - but I think his fate was interwoven with hers, and with Doriath, so that he was able to eventually wander on in.

As for the poem cited above, regarding the power of Melian... perhaps more poetic license than sober assessment?

Makes me think also of whatever barriers were set between Beleriand and Valinor - in function if not in form.

I think I see it much the same as several others here... though it's hard to draw a final conclusion.

[Valandil]

Anyway... been too long. About time for me to go back and read The Silmarillion once more.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think that Beren's fate was greater than Melian's power - but I think his fate was interwoven with hers, and with Doriath, so that he was able to eventually wander on in.

It's also possible that the Girdle, however it functioned, didn't regard Beren as a threat at that point. He was alone, carrying a ring of an Elf-Lord at the time, and making friends with the beasts and birds. That ought to count for something.

[Midge]

I think the Silmarils had some kind of addictive power as well. Feanor was really uber possessive, to the point of paranoia about them, IIRC, and I wouldn't imagine Morgoth would be willing to let them out of his sight once he'd got them.

Not to mention, dragons are treasure-hungry. I think if he handed a Silmaril to a dragon, he'd probably have never gotten it back.