Discussion thread for Olmer's Uruk-hai, or the journey there...

[captain carrot]

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The discussion thread for Olmer's Uruk-hai, or the journey there...

Firstly, good to see you again Olmer.
I didn't want to clutter up your story translation thread, so i started this discussion thread here.

i hope that is ok?


Where to start? ... beginnings are such fragile things ... ok - at the top!

Firstly i think you have done a very good job on the whole. There are parts translation wise that would lend themselves to some tightening or to some english phrasing, but in parts the translation from russian to english adds it's own beauty and interest.

In terms of posting here online ...a few paragraph breaks and spaces would make it less daunting and such a strain on the eyes / mind!!!


I am hesitant to suggest this, for fear of any offence .... ... but perhaps we could offer the odd suggestion - just to tighten it up?

eg:

Who was he? The son of gardener

The son of a gardener would be a suggestion.


If you are happy for mooters to help out i am sure there'd be plenty of helpful suggestions!

The above example is of course pretty innocuous. however the more thorny issue is where a sentence or description or punctuation changes subtly the meaning, emphasis or description - this is where it becomes cloudy, and you would have to use your judgement!

an example of this would be:

We, then, have brought the beer to Butterbur for his " Prancing pony ".

We, then, have brought the beer to good ol' Butterbur for his most excellent inn the "Prancing pony". ( )

(he'd be gettin on a bit heh?)

Now this is me messing about a bit on this particular example ,

but the issue is clear - at what point is it a cleaner english translation and at what point are we changing the writing style or adding new concepts?

[captain carrot]

Feedback on the story?

Also - do you welcome / or your friend - welcome any feedback on the story so far?

Overall there is much i like about it ... it was starting to draw me in.

I absolutely loved the name of teddy, a hobbitisation of the Rohanic Theodon! very nice touch and warming.

The description of the flying away on the horse is very visual and has wings as it were ... the translation might benefit from a tweak here and there in english - but that again is a thorny issue (potentially - maybe it wouldn't be? )

anyway - i'd be happy to add the odd suggestion as it develops if that is any help? - and i hope others will too - (if you want them to, of course) and i hope to see new chapters as and when you have the time!

Best BB

[Olmer]

Greeting,captain carrot
I am glad to be back and see that familiar nicks are still here. It's like coming back home. Thanks for the welcoming and for encouraging words.

It's a great idea to make a separate thread to work over the translation of the story.
This is my first attempt to translate a work of literature on another language, and I am open to any corrections and suggestions, especially considering punctuation or more appropriate way of a paraphrasing the sentence.

I agree that the chapter (actually, it's one of 35 chapters) is quite long, and I tried to break into paragraphs for more convenient reading . Thanks for a suggestion.

As to tightening it up, I was trying to translate the words of the author as closely as I can.
As a reminder, I have infront of me a few books of "The Lord of the Rings" badly translated on Russian, where the translators in attempts to cut the corners incorporaited their own interpretations of the events, thus you can't refer to any part of the book, being not sure that you are quoting the phrase which in Russian has exactly the same meaning as in English.
I don't think that shortening up the story would do any good. Especially since it is already the finished material. Right now an author is working on another novel about orcs.

I found the work interesting and challenging, and decided to try my hands in this field of literature. The most daunting part is a poetry. I am afraid that I won't be good enough to convey the meaning in English rhimes. But it 's still too far away, so I can put my worries aside.

Definately, I 'll be happy for any help of fellow-mooters.

[nokom]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Greeting,captain carrot
I am glad to be back and see that familiar nicks are still here. It's like coming back home. Thanks for the welcoming and for encouraging words.

It's a great idea to make a separate thread to work over the translation of the story.
This is my first attempt to translate a work of literature on another language, and I am open to any corrections and suggestions, especially considering punctuation or more appropriate way of a paraphrasing the sentence.

I agree that the chapter (actually, it's one of 35 chapters) is quite long, and I tried to break into paragraphs for more convenient reading . Thanks for a suggestion.

As to tightening it up, I was trying to translate the words of the author as closely as I can.
As a reminder, I have infront of me a few books of "The Lord of the Rings" badly translated on Russian, where the translators in attempts to cut the corners incorporaited their own interpretations of the events, thus you can't refer to any part of the book, being not sure that you are quoting the phrase which in Russian has exactly the same meaning as in English.
I don't think that shortening up the story would do any good. Especially since it is already the finished material. Right now an author is working on another novel about orcs.

I found the work interesting and challenging, and decided to try my hands in this field of literature. The most daunting part is a poetry. I am afraid that I won't be good enough to convey the meaning in English rhimes. But it 's still too far away, so I can put my worries aside.

Definately, I 'll be happy for any help of fellow-mooters.

I must ask: Was this published in Russia? Or is it a fan fic?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by nokom

I must ask: Was this published in Russia? Or is it a fan fic?

Why do you want to know?
What the difference? In any case you can't read it.
This is why I'm translating it to you.

[nokom]

Well I have made my own Chronology for Middle Earth, and I want to add it to it, but first I need to know if it was published, I don't like to add fan fics to it. I feel that even if they are good, they just can't count, only offical books.

[captain carrot]

Does entmoot get a reference (as a refernce tool say) anywhere nokom?

I see you have added some new chapters Olmer - i'll hopefully have time to read them next week.

[Olmer]

captain carrot

I see you have added some new chapters Olmer - i'll hopefully have time to read them next week.

Yeah. 3 out of 35. The chapters are big, takes time to translate. Then the action unravels slowly - too much of details. Which is good, because this way you are getting to know the characters more closely, thus forming sympathies or antypathies.
Would be interesting to hear an opinion of English-speaking readers on the subject of depicting orcs "too human". The author got a lot of criticism for that.

To nokom. I think that the Chronology of ME should be based not on
written fantasy, but on detailed study of ME events, mentioned or assumed in the actual work of Tolkien.

[nokom]

Entmoot does get a few refrences, yes

[Gordis]

A very interesting story, Olmer. I have read it all in one sitting and I will surely check for updates. Thank you for taking time to translate this fic and to share it with us.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Would be interesting to hear an opinion of English-speaking readers on the subject of depicting orcs "too human". The author got a lot of criticism for that.

I would say that in this fic orcs are very "orcish" and hobbits are "hobbity". They are very much in character.

The way this fic portrays orcs (so far) is much closer to Tolkien's own take on them, than the greenish aliens of PJ's movie.

I hope, however, the author will keep the right balance and not make his orcs totally noble, obedient, unselfish etc...

[Olmer]

Thanks for your comment, Gordis

The way this fic portrays orcs (so far) is much closer to Tolkien's own take on them, than the greenish aliens of PJ's movie.

I found that is more compelling for me to see orcs more "humanized" .
After all, no matter what "rootstock" Melkor has used to corrupt, elves or men, the orcs are flesh and blood of children of Eru, with the same feelings and emotions as any other race of ME.
I could even accept the idea that Melkor "corruption" has been something of a comprachicos' practice, but still it doesn't turn individuals into lizard-like mindlessly fighing gangs.
Tolkien gives a suggestions that the orcs were having organized communities with the same function, as any other communities on ME, i.e. own rules, history, legends, production of their own specific material things for theirs livelihood.
The author has broadened Tolkien's idea. I like that.

[Gordis]

Quite interesting, Olmer. Thank you for posting.

[Olmer]

All right. It's already 7 chapters, and I think you all have a pretty good idea what the book is all about.
I'll tell what I like so far about the writing.
I liked how he described guy's memory of Hobbiton. You can picture yourself over there, walking along hills and meadows.
Then, I have never thought about hobbit's matrimonial customs, and it was interesting for me to find how theirs love for family trees and multiple relations between hobbit's families have brought the author's interpretation of arranged marriages.

I, also, liked his culinary narrations. The way how he is putting hobbit's reminiscences about cooked in Hobbiton food makes your mouth salivating, also you have a pretty good description of how to cook it. :-)
Their love for beer has got a lot of coverage, but not a word about smoking, thought.

Orcs. In theirs traits they are similar to the traits of people from different societies: orderly, or anarchic, and I like this approach.
Also, portraits of every person are quite detailed. Every character is very visual.
The author's thoughts on some subjects, like about how man feels when holding the sword, have some philosophical touches. It's words of man, who knows about war and fights.

It's a little bit strange how Ghash was able to commuicate with the tree, he is definately not Tom Bombadil to hear what the tree was answering to him.
And in my opinion he procrastinated too long for everybody's comfort while talking with the tree. Considering the nastiness of the tree, they all would be crushed withim a few minutes.

Than the hobbit's running along with "wolves" seems not adds up: it's like to put a long distance runner in pair with a toddler. Strange, how the hobbit managed to keep up with them, but this is just the way of unraveling the story.

Probably, it's a lot of things, which should be noted.
What's your opinion so far?

[Butterbeer]

sadly, i have have not had the time to keep up - i sincerely hope to - and anyone that knows me will know i rarely say what i do not mean to do -

but, sadly i am most behind - i hope to catch up when i can, and your post above certainly whets my appetite.

anything that really pitches you into a first person on hobbiton and the shire HAS to be worth reading.

best, BB

[Gordis]

Olmer, I am still reading your translation and enjoying it.

The new chapter was good, save one thing - the story about evil King's men and the little girl. It is fishy... There was really no need to make monsters out of Dunedain to make uruks appear better. They are good enough as it is.

And what do you think yourself?

[Olmer]

Thanks, Gordis.
It definately makes the chapter less boring.
I think that episode with the dolt and the smith is very visual. Feel sorry for both, but I understand the anger of rohirrim upon seeng the dying horse.
When my cat disappeared for a week and then came back with one eye burnt out, I was ready to roast those who did it.

The story with girl is a tearjerker, and five or six lashes to a three year old is extreme, but used to be not uncommon.
I , myself, used to get flogged for my mischieves with my father's leather belt. So, for me it's believable.

About Dunedain... Time change, people change...

[Gordis]

Great new chapter, Olmer!
The descriprion of Misty mountains at the beginning is awesome! And the description of the battlefield - so realistic. Realism, unfortunately, is something Tolkien himself almost lacks.
Also I like how the orc characters are portrayed esp. Uragh who couldn't keep his mouth shut and accepted the beating.
I am glad you keep translating. It is definitely a good story

[Gordis]

Hi, Olmer!
Thanks for updating.

It was inevitable, I guess, that in a hundred years the Ents would start to hate the Rohirrim more then orcs.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Hi, Olmer!
Thanks for updating.

It was inevitable, I guess, that in a hundred years the Ents would start to hate the Rohirrim more then orcs.

Hi, Lady of the Deceiven!
I felt like I have to keep up my promise and carry forward, even if just a few people are really interested in the story.

I understand Treebeard's frustration and a reason for his black depression: it's like with your own hands you made a ground for your own destruction, and now you are powerless to stop the inevitable, because the help is thinning out, and even from those, who are still around, many gave up on a fight, became bitter and impassive.

Sadly, it's resonant with nowadays tendencies: mankind is growing up in size and for a dubious comfort is blithely destroying a surrounding nature while majority is watching witn an indifference.