NOT about Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So where is the responsibility of the palestinians in this? You may be COMPLETELY unaware - but whenever Israel makes a move to pull out - there are suicide bombings.

I have not seen a direct parallel between reconciliatory gestures on the part of Israel and an increase in terrorism. I have seen that terrorism has continued in spite of Ariel Sharon's plan to withdraw from Gaza. I might add that many (probably most) Palestinians don't believe at all that this pull-out will occur.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I do 100% agree with the term homicide bombing. The palestinians stated goal for a long time has been the utter destruction of israel - not peace side by side as you seem to think.

The original Partition Plan was quite unfair to the Arabs. It makes sense to me that they rejected it. If you look at the population figures for the proposed Palestinian and the Jewish states, you'll see how unfair they were. That the Palestinians should initially have rejected the existence of a Jewish State, while this state was an idea rather then a fact, makes sense to me. The UN proposal was unfair.

Now I know that many religious leaders among the Arabs have called for the utter destruction of the Israeli state, and I also know that the Arab nations surrounding Israel did aggressively attack Israel with the intent of annihilating it. I also heard that this was in part done because of what happened to the Palestinians, because of the Palestinian expulsions the Jews were committing. The Palestinians were angry at the Arabs for not coming to their rescue sooner.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It was NOT israel which started the war - but the arab countries. if it was not for Israel being attacked - and the constant goal of Israel's destruction - you would not see the palestinians suffering like they are. You seem to want to completely just ignore the role the palestinians and the arab countries have played in this situation.

What you say here is true. Of course, it is a fact that Israel launched a preemptive strike against those Arab countries (Egypt, Syria, etc.), but I won't deny that they were planning to hit Israel first. Because of that, the attack does seem justified. The Arab countries were not acting entirely out of religious conviction though, but were also acting to alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people. There was more then one reason for their making the choices they did.

I have some difficulty with your reasoning though. You are pointing the finger back at the Arab countries, using Palestininan support, as the aggressors. However, you seem to be justifying Israel's retaliation based upon the argument "they started it." Though in fact their having really started it is questionable- I don't look on America with an attitude of "they started it" because we destroyed the depraved regime that ruled Iraq. In the same way I don't look on the Arab nations as having been utterly horrible because of invading Israel, when in part they were doing so because of the suffering of their fellow Arab and Muslim kin (the Israelis did deport people before the major war with the Arab nations). But even if the Arab nations and Palestinians did "start it" that wouldn't be justification for the Israelis behaving with cruelty to the Palestinians. When Germany was split by the Berlin Wall, the Americans took care of their side of the place and poured money into it. We helped the German people, while Russia abused and took advantage of them. The Russians had justification, because Germany had certainly invaded Russia in the past. Yet did that give them the right to go through Berlin raping the women, taking what they wanted, and reducing their side of the country to poverty? In the same way Israel has stifled the Palestinian people and continues to keep them in a state of poverty and despair, packed into refugee camps in a state of squalor. Did Russia and does Israel have the right to be inhumane, because someone else was inhumane first?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Well I figure thats its about time for me to get into this wonderfully fair and unbiased discussion, a discussion not littered with ignorance or intolerance at all...

I love how people always point towards the teachings of Islam, and see nothing but car bombers and terrorists.
I mean, gee, its not like Christians have ever killed in the name of Allah, er God, and its not like they still use their religion to persecute those that they see as undesirable, ungodly or just plain evil. Do they?
Lets take a ride out to the bible belt of the good ole land of tolerance and freedom of speech and expression, the USA. Lets see if Gays, blacks and jews feel as though they live in a land without fear. How many hate crimes and Gay bashings happened last year? How many Blacks have been strung up on trees over the years for looking too long at the local white shopkeepers daughter?

Perhaps the land of Slavery (slavery that was long still in place after it was abolished in Europe), those unbiased and fair Klu Klux Klansmen , and then that pesky, unfortunate matter of the anihhilation of their entire native populations; perhaps they should think twice before they point the finger at Europe on the tolerance front, eh?

[Valandil]

Fenir - you're off topic. There are plenty of threads to discuss those other things you mention. If not, feel free to make one if you like.

The point of this thread was initially to note the increasing presence of Moslems in Europe - and the resultant changes to Europe.

If you wish to say that these changes are not happening, or that the changes are good things or are inconsequential, or whatever else pertains to the issue, you are free to do so. But please don't try to make this thread about just anything.

EDIT: upon further review, I see that your post isn't the only one that's OT (although it is perhaps the most so), so EVERYONE, please - let's keep the discussion in the thread on topic!

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Not only that - but again he shows his complete ignorance toward the US - but really - what else would you expect from him - he only wanted to have a reason to attack the US.

I love you to sweetheart.

Perhaps some sort of reply would be in order, as opposed to your lovely sweeping generalisations.

And anyway, given that everyone else was going on about the intolerance of Europe, (the "tolerant" JD included), I felt obligated to state the proverbial "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," argument.

Though I agree Val, this has gotten off topic, but not by me. So how 'bout those Muslims gaining influence in the west, eh?

[inked]

Well, as instigator of this thread, I should like to see it continue in regards to Europe. However, I am personally open to a thread on Islamic influence in the US from some folks across the pond. Perhaps you two gents could agree to continue this vituperative and highly entertaining exchange there ?

What say you oh High King Valandil? Could we confine USA bashing to one thread with regard to Islam? I shall be learning and arguing as well I suppose! Kinda hard to resist!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I actually don't think it has much to do with the age of the countries at all nor with countries being invaded. It has to do with the development of our countries. The US is a nation of immigrants. Even during the early colonial days of NJ - it was founded by Englsih, Germans, Swedes, Finns, French, Scottish, Irish, etc etc, as well as many different religions including Jews, protestants, catholics, etc. Then there was the mas migration of the 1800's and early 1900's through Ellis Island.

i just noticed this... what you fail to realize is that europe is also a nation of immigrants... though of a much more distant origin than over here

We embraced the gypsy, the poor (although there were some problems of course) - while Europe has had a history of looking down on them. Europe is historically a class society - while the US isn't. Except for slavery - which Europe brought to America and was common throughout the world, the US has been a very tolerant country.

europe became a "class" society over time as different groups slowly "staked their territory"... i would not be terribly surprised if the america of 1500 years from now doesn't have all those "class" problems you speak about in europe... the changes may already be happening

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by inked

What say you oh High King Valandil? Could we confine USA bashing to one thread with regard to Islam? I shall be learning and arguing as well I suppose! Kinda hard to resist!

Agreed inked. As good as a bit of USA-bashing might be for the soul, it's hard to see how it's relevant to a thread on the observed growth of Islam in Europe and possible implications (where one might rather expect either Europe-bashing, Islam-bashing, or both... or neither - but USA-bashing?? ).

I had been about to step in yet again and ask our two compatriots to cease and desist... hopefully, this will do the trick.

Fenir - you are indeed welcome to start whatever thread you like, as long as it's within forum guidelines. IIRC, your very first post on this board was the start of an anti-US thread. So... no need to pretend you wouldn't be allowed to do it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Agreed inked. As good as a bit of USA-bashing might be for the soul, it's hard to see how it's relevant to a thread on the observed growth of Islam in Europe and possible implications (where one might rather expect either Europe-bashing, Islam-bashing, or both... or neither - but USA-bashing?? ).

I had been about to step in yet again and ask our two compatriots to cease and desist... hopefully, this will do the trick.

Please - all there is is frigging US bashing and he bitches and moans that there is OJNE thread that is complaining about Europe. As for telling em anything - you don't have to tell me ****. You don't have to be condescending either with - "two compatatriots"

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I see nothing wrong with being proud of your country or nationality. And there is always some countries who are better and some who are worse. Would you say that Nazi Germany was the same as the US? or would you say their culture was acceptable and we should have just been tolerant of their views? I could think the US is the best country in the world - it does not mean that I don't admire or think highly of many others though or that I look down on anyone else.

understanding and accepting are two different things... there are reasons behind nazi germany becoming what it was... it's not just because "all germans were evil back then"... the same can be said of muslim extremism today... if you want change you must try to understand the "why"

being proud of you own nationality, religion, etc. is fine... acting as if it is "the only way and everyone should understand that" is what causes problems

So do you find yourself tolerant of women being stoned to death for looking at a man or in the case inked quote - of refusing a teenage boy?

obviously not, and i would deal with the offender in a very "final" way so that they would not be able to ever commit the crime again... but the question is, how do you change attitudes so that certain groups no longer find this kind of action necessary or acceptable?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i just noticed this... what you fail to realize is that europe is also a nation of immigrants... though of a much more distant origin than over here

Nomadic tribes migrating to regions hardly makes for an "immigrant"

europe became a "class" society over time as different groups slowly "staked their territory"... i would not be terribly surprised if the america of 1500 years from now doesn't have all those "class" problems you speak about in europe... the changes may already be happening

No - because Europe was founded as a class society. Kings and Queens and head rulers of the variosu tribes. It's deep in their history - unlike ours - which is a HISTORY of immigration and the accepting of outside cultures into our own.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Please - all there is is frigging US bashing and he bitches and moans that there is OJNE thread that is complaining about Europe. As for telling em anything - you don't have to tell me ****. You don't have to be condescending either with - "two compatatriots"

You were beginning to get as OT as he was. I was indeed about to tell you both to stop.

My word choice is my own. I'll try harder next time to think of something better to call the two of you when you fight.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

understanding and accepting are two different things... there are reasons behind nazi germany becoming what it was... it's not just because "all germans were evil back then"... the same can be said of muslim extremism today... if you want change you must try to understand the "why"

being proud of you own nationality, religion, etc. is fine... acting as if it is "the only way and everyone should understand that" is what causes problems

Down below you say you would change muslim attitudes toward stoning and so forth. YOu obviously don't care to understand the "why" in those regards? So I guess you pick and choose then based on how strongly you feel about things. As for all of Germany being evil - of course not - but you have to admit - former friends turned each other in. There isn't much of a difference in the blind hatred and group think the Germans had - as to what is going on in the Middle East today. Do you deny that in Muslim schools that they teach hatred and death to the Jews and infidels?

obviously not, and i would deal with the offender in a very "final" way so that they would not be able to ever commit the crime again... but the question is, how do you change attitudes so that certain groups no longer find this kind of action necessary or acceptable?

Well their society finds it acceptable. So I guess we have it - you think that our way is better than there way - because you want to "change them" and "teach them". What happens if they don't want to?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Nomadic tribes migrating to regions hardly makes for an "immigrant"

different methods... same result, a mixing of different cultures and populations which slowly solidified into their own territories over time

go to any town in the US these days, there are "rich" sections (some even gated off) and "poor" sections... and there are parts of the country divided by religion and culture just as strong as any two european nations

we are not the "melting pot" we once were

No - because Europe was founded as a class society. Kings and Queens and head rulers of the variosu tribes. It's deep in their history - unlike ours - which is a HISTORY of immigration and the accepting of outside cultures into our own.

hmm... who was gwb's dad and what position did he hold in the government?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

You were beginning to get as OT as he was. I was indeed about to tell you both to stop.

My word choice is my own. I'll try harder next time to think of something better to call the two of you when you fight.

Liek I care

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

different methods... same result, a mixing of different cultures and populations which slowly solidified into their own territories over time

It isn't the same result nor is it the same thing. Do you study any European history at all?

go to any town in the US these days, there are "rich" sections (some even gated off) and "poor" sections... and there are parts of the country divided by religion and culture just as strong as any two european nations

we are not the "melting pot" we once were

This is mostly caused because of the hyphenation of America. people not coming here to BE American. During the Ellis Island days - peopel came here WANTING to be American. Now they want their cake and eat it too. They want to be Mexicans or ukrainians who just happen to be US citizens - but their love is for their other country.

hmm... who was gwb's dad and what position did he hold in the government?

He was freely elected. What position did Al Gore's father hold. And if you want to bring up political families - let's start talking about the Kennedys then.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As for all of Germany being evil - of course not - but you have to admit - former friends turned each other in. There isn't much of a difference in the blind hatred and group think the Germans had - as to what is going on in the Middle East today. Do you deny that in Muslim schools that they teach hatred and death to the Jews and infidels?

I expect they don't teach hatred and death to Jews and infidels in the majority of Muslim schools. Not knowing the facts, it doesn't seem very intelligent to make broad assertions. However, I won't deny that it happens in some places. The U.S. did the same thing when at war with Japan.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I expect they don't teach hatred and death to Jews and infidels in the majority of Muslim schools. Not knowing the facts, it doesn't seem very intelligent to make broad assertions. However, I won't deny that it happens in some places. The U.S. did the same thing when at war with Japan.

We didn't teach hatred toward the japanese and actually teach death to them. I have posted many of the findings that go on in Saudi Arabian schools. Maybe you should watch and study ome of what they teach in A LOT of the schools in the Arab world. The US has gotten on the case of Saudia Arabia about their curriculum and some things have changed. But they still preach death in the mosques.

I find your knowledge in this area rather narrow and lacking in many respects Lief.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

It isn't the same result nor is it the same thing. Do you study any European history at all?

yes, and asian, and american, and african (though australia is a sore spot )

This is mostly caused because of the hyphenation of America. people not coming here to BE American. During the Ellis Island days - peopel came here WANTING to be American. Now they want their cake and eat it too. They want to be Mexicans or ukrainians who just happen to be US citizens - but their love is for their other country.

rich and poor end up in different regions because of hypenation?!?

He was freely elected. What position did Al Gore's father hold. And if you want to bring up political families - let's start talking about the Kennedys then.

exactly, kennedy is a good example too... and it is not all about relations... but it is all about being "chosen" by a relatively small group of people who decided who will be in the running in the first place... and by this i mean "effectively" in the running with that backing of one or the other major political party... sure, anyone can run, and they do... but even you know an independent has absolutely zero chance of even coming close to winning

our political system is slowly becoming a more and more closed playing field

[Valandil]

OK guys... back on topic!

I DON'T wanna have to split this thread!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valandil

OK guys... back on topic!

I DON'T wanna have to split this thread!

it is on topic... rather than just bitch about muslims in europe i'm trying to actually offer a solution

of course, then there'd be nothing to bitch about, so i'll just let it go