What did YOU think about Frodo meeting Bilbo in Elrond’s House?

[Alcuin]

I finally started re-reading LotR Tuesday. I’m about to begin “Council of Elrond�.

In “Many Meetings�, there is a passage that bothers me. It’s a little obscure. Peter Jackson interpreted in a way very different what I had always imagined. I’ve reread it many times, but it still looks to me like what I had always seen before in my mind.

First the passage, followed by how I’ve always interpreted it, then what Jackson did with it. Finally the question to Entmoot: What did you think of this passage when you first read it?

“Have you got it here?� [Bilbo] asked in a whisper. “I can’t help feeling curious, you know, after all I’ve heard. I should very much like just to peep at it again.�

“Yes, I’ve got it,� answered Frodo, feeling a strange reluctance. “It looks just the same as ever it did.’

“Well, I should just like to see it for a moment,� said Bilbo.

When he had dressed, Frodo found that while he slept the Ring had been hung about his neck on a new chain, light but strong. Slowly he drew it out. Bilbo put out his hand. But Frodo quickly drew back the Ring. To his distress and amazement he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him.

The music and singing round them seemed to falter and a silence fell. Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo’s face and passed his hand across his eyes. “I understand now,� he said. “Put it away! I am sorry; sorry you have come in for this burden; sorry about everything. Don’t adventures ever have an end? I suppose not. Someone else always has to carry on the story. Well, it can’t be helped. I wonder if it’s any good trying to finish my book? But don’t let’s worry about it now – let’s have some real News! Tell me all about the Shire!�

Frodo hid the Ring away, and the shadow passed leaving hardly a shred of memory. The light and music of Rivendell was about him again. Bilbo smiled and laughed happily. …

The passage Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo’s face and passed his hand across his eyes is ambiguous. The antecedents of his hand and his eyes are not clearly set forth: Does it mean:

1. Bilbo’s hand and Bilbo’s eyes
2. Frodo’s hand and Frodo’s eyes
3. Bilbo’s hand and Frodo’s eyes
4. Frodo’s hand and Bilbo’s eyes

I have always taken it to mean Bilbo’s hand and Frodo’s eyes. To me, when Bilbo reached out, under the influence of the Ring, Frodo misinterpreted Bilbo’s desire to touch the Ring as a desire to take it from Frodo. Because of the Ring, Frodo saw Bilbo like a caricature of Gollum. Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo’s face, realized what was happening to his heir, and passed his [Bilbo’s] hand across his [Frodo’s] eyes. Bilbo sees that Frodo is falling into the power of the Ring. Bilbo feels terrible about this: he loves Frodo as a son and understands how horrible this is for Frodo. Bilbo immediately changes the subject, leaving Frodo with almost no recollection of the passion (in the original sense of undergoing suffering) momentarily imposed upon him by the Ring.

Peter Jackson interpreted this passage to mean that Bilbo transformed into a hissing Gollum, horrifying and repelling Frodo, whereupon Bilbo passed his [Bilbo’s] hand across his [Bilbo’s] eyes.

Because Tolkien left the antecedents for his and his ambiguous, all four interpretations are possible.

I’m out this thread. All I want to know is,

What did you think when you read the passage?

[Earniel]

I always thought the movie-scene with Bilbo's transformation was a bit over the top but it works for the movie-audience to hint that Bilbo could easily have become like Gollum if he had held on to the Ring.

In the book I found the scene more moving. In the movie, Frodo looks at Bilbo and sees something different. In the book, Bilbo looks at Frodo and sees something different. I always thought Bilbo saw Frodo's distaste at Bilbo's yearning for the Ring when he quickly looked at Frodo's face and at that point realises what the Ring was doing to him and to see that look on a beloved relative's face is a painful thing.

I then thought Bilbo passed his hand across his own eyes to break the connection with the Ring, a final giving up of the Ring. He had been made to give up the Ring before, By Gandalf, and leave it for Frodo. But he may have had ideas that if he were to see Frodo again, in better days, maybe his nephew would return the Ring to him. But taking his eyes of it and asking Frodo to put it away was like his own choice to give it up, permanently this time.

Another interpretation that came to me only after reading and re-reading is that maybe the look on Frodo's face reveals to Bilbo that his nephew is now coming under the spell of the Ring and what an ugly thing it is to see. This then would make Bilbo finally realise that the Ring is no longer his, and that any action to take it from Frodo could destroy his nephew. Hence also the following apologies. Why else would he be sorry for Frodo to bear this burden, if he only realises now what a burden it is, and not just a useful trinket? It was probably only at this point that Bilbo didn't just feel regret for having left the Ring to someone else, but also guilt.

Regardless of which interpretation I choose to follow, I always picture the scene with Bilbo passing his hands across his own eyes to stop seeing something he doesn't want to see anymore.

[Nerwen]

I agree that Frodo's look of distaste was both a look of insight into Ring-lust and disappointment in seeing in in his beloved uncle. I certainly think the Ring's baneful influence was at work on Frodo at that instant, maybe a wee bit of jealousy? It certainly worked on Boromir at a greater distance

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In the book I found the scene more moving. In the movie, Frodo looks at Bilbo and sees something different. In the book, Bilbo looks at Frodo and sees something different.

Wait, am I reading you right? In the book, Frodo sees Bilbo as "a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands". Are you saying it was the other way around?

I always thought Bilbo saw Frodo's distaste at Bilbo's yearning for the Ring when he quickly looked at Frodo's face and at that point realises what the Ring was doing to him and to see that look on a beloved relative's face is a painful thing.

I agree.

And I think it's pretty clear that Bilbo passes his own hand across his own eyes.

Another interpretation that came to me only after reading and re-reading is that maybe the look on Frodo's face reveals to Bilbo that his nephew is now coming under the spell of the Ring and what an ugly thing it is to see.

Yes, I think this is part of it, too.

Regardless of which interpretation I choose to follow, I always picture the scene with Bilbo passing his hands across his own eyes to stop seeing something he doesn't want to see anymore.

Yes, I think it's kind of a reflexive movement of Bilbo's hands - kind of a warding off something evil.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Wait, am I reading you right? In the book, Frodo sees Bilbo as "a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands". Are you saying it was the other way around?

No, I'm saying that Bilbo also looks at Frodo and sees something specific. (When you look in the abyss, the abyss also look into you sorta thing) We never learn exactly what it is since we're most of the time in Frodo's POV.

[Galin]

I don't think two different people are meant in this sentence with "his", and if c was meant (if this was the intention) Tolkien could have written: "Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo's face and passed his hand across Frodo's eyes."

And to mean that Bilbo passed Frodo's hand over Frodo's eyes, or Bilbo passing Frodo's hand over Bilbo's eyes (b and d), both seem a much more unexpected gesture to my mind, that is, usng someone else's hand to do either action rather than using your own hand. But again I also don't think "his" should refer to two different people.


For me it's: Bilbo passed his own hand over his own eyes.

In my opinion

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

I don't think two different people are meant in this sentence with "his", and if c was meant (if this was the intention) Tolkien could have written: "Bilbo looked quickly at Frodo's face and passed his hand across Frodo's eyes."

And to mean that Bilbo passed Frodo's hand over Frodo's eyes, or Bilbo passing Frodo's hand over Bilbo's eyes (b and d), both seem a much more unexpected gesture to my mind, that is, usng someone else's hand to do either action rather than using your own hand. But again I also don't think "his" should refer to two different people.


For me it's: Bilbo passed his own hand over his own eyes.

In my opinion

I agree/ Bilbo passed his hand over his own eyes. To interpret it otherwise would imply JRRT wrote sloppily, and this he did not do.

[Varnafindë]

I always interpreted it as 'Bilbo passed his own hand across his own eyes'.
Bilbo is the focus in this paragraph, and I agree with Galin that Tolkien would have mentioned Frodo's name again if Frodo's eyes were involved.

I think Bilbo's action has to do with what he understands when he looks at Frodo's face, he reacts with covering his eyes against what he sees - which may well be giving him a better understanding of what the ring does to its bearer.

[Butterbeer]

I've always read that as Bilbo passes his own hands over his own eyes, and for myself have no doubt that's how it reads, and is, and was and will ever be

I find it odd no one has mentioned the context of this brief event, and where they were at the time... If in the Hall of Fire mortal hobbits can be transported by song to half awake dreams and visions through time and space and over sundered seas, it hardly seems odd for both Frodo and Bilbo, both ring bearers, to have this moment almost of vision, or shared understanding / enlightenment... ?

As to the Cinematic take on the scene, even if they reversed it, i thought it worked very well, and this is where some visual creativity is welcomed and the reversed POV for me just wasn't an issue and in fact it added to the Film- and that's rare enough.


Ive always thought the more interesting thing was that 'shadow'... and its ephereal qualities, and once passed no one else ever noticed anything, and music and light was about them - ie it was a shared moment of vision and understanding shared by Bilbo and frodo alone.... except perhaps for that ordained "mysterious shadow"?