The Great Darkness

[Keith K]

Let's try to shed a little light on the Great Darkness. Was it merely ash and dust spewed from Orodruin and spread over the world? Was it more like the second darkness spoken of in LOTR where the sun was actually blocked out? Or was it used as a metaphor for how the Second Age was construed in Middle Earth by those who lived under Sauron's domination (like the Dark Ages of our own history)?

If it was actually dark and sunless, that would have a profound effect on agriculture. Perhaps it was a bit of both whereby it was only dark in the area around Mordor and sunny further out.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Keith K
Let's try to shed a little light on the Great Darkness. Was it merely ash and dust spewed from Orodruin and spread over the world? Was it more like the second darkness spoken of in LOTR where the sun was actually blocked out? Or was it used as a metaphor for how the Second Age was construed in Middle Earth by those who lived under Sauron's domination (like the Dark Ages of our own history)?

If it was actually dark and sunless, that would have a profound effect on agriculture. Perhaps it was a bit of both whereby it was only dark in the area around Mordor and sunny further out.

According to Foster, "The Great Darkness" was a term that was used to describe the period of the dominion of Morgoth, or his influence and its extent. The term was only used by Fangorn.

[Spock]

...and yet it is referred to in the books as "a gathering of darkness" which would indicate it could be seen; i.e. real not metaphor.

[FrodoFriend]

The sky over Mordor really was dark, and I assume the rest of ME would've ended up like that too, had Sauron conquered. So I'd say it refers to both the physical and political state of affairs (similar to what GW will be leading us into if things continue as they are...).

[Finmandos12]

So I'd say it refers to both the physical and political state of affairs (similar to what GW will be leading us into if things continue as they are...).

Keep your political views out of the Middle-Earth forum. If you want to discuss George W., do it in General.

[FrodoFriend]

Excuse me, it was just a comment, and I'll add them wherever I please. You have no authority over me in this matter.

[Sister Golden Hair]

That's enough you two. Let's get back to the discussion.

[FrodoFriend]

Just defending my honor from the upstart Elven Warrior, oh Queen of Nargothrond!

Anyway, I stick to my both physical and political description opinion. Got a question to add though - the political darkness is obviously Sauron and the Orcs taking everything over. But the physical darkness in the sky, where did it come from, and what is it? Ash? Coal? Some kind of gas?

[markedel]

One would assume its from Mount Doom, caused obviously by Sauron's power over Arda itself (residual from Morgoth I believe).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by markedel
One would assume its from Mount Doom, caused obviously by Sauron's power over Arda itself (residual from Morgoth I believe).

How is that possible since all of Beleriand was destroyed by then?

[Aeryn Evenstar]

In Robert Foster's Tolkien's World from A to Z it says "An emanation sent by Sauron which covered Mordor, Gondor, and Rohan before and during the Siege of Gondor. the Darkness has a depressing effect. It was blown away by the south wind which carried Aragorn's fleet up Anduin." So it was an actual darness--that's how I understood it when reading ROTK. Whether or not it was gas or ash, it doesn't say.

[Wayfarer]

And sauron's intent was to cover the land in 'a second darkness' so it's likely that that was the situation under melkor as well.

After all, melkor had three volcanos, and they were bigger than mount doom.

[Keith K]

The darkness in LOTR was an actual emanation from Mt. Doom. Frodo and Sam were among the first to witness it coming from the mtn/volcano and the errand rider reported its progress when he went to Theoden in Rohan. No question in my mind that it was physically there and it's origin was Orodruin. What is unclear to me is that this darkness is at least once and possibly several times mentioned as being a second darkness. I can't remember which characters referred to it this way but maybe Ghan-buri-gan was one of them. Anyway, I always thought that this original darkness stemmed from Sauron's first arising in the Second Age and conquering the greater part of ME. Like right after he made the Ring. Sometimes referred to as the Black Years I think. Was this darkness also like the one that occured during the War of the Ring? As when the sun is actually blocked out? Perhaps it only got dark like that during times of war and conflict. Sauron would send it out in advance of his armies to cow and unnerve his enemies. Or maybe it was dark all the time everywhere so the orcs could move about more easily. Yet, if this was so, wouldn't there be some record or tale of this in Numenorian lore? They visited ME in those times of Saurons' dominion. I'm not sure if Elrond or Galadriel ever mentioned it but I don't think so.

[Wayfarer]

I think the first darkness referred to melkor's domination of beleriand. He used the smokescreen trick to, if I'm not mistaken.

[Keith K]

So there was no darkness in ME during the Second Age? Just one darkness for Morgoth and a second darkness for Sauron? I always thought Sauron had two on his own.

[Wayfarer]

There were periods of lesser darkness, but only during the time of melkor's power was middle earth truly covered in darkness. If sauron had won, it would have happened again.

[The Warden of the Keys]

I always thought the first "darkness" in Middle Earth was the period after Melkor destroyed the Two Lamps. The rising of the Sun and Moon ended this first darkness.

Look at the name Moriquendi for example. They were the "Elves of the Darkness"; they awoke after the destruction of the Lamps and before the Sun and Moon rose.

[Elvedans]

I find all these evil beings and darknesses really confusing - could someone explain them all to me n-i-c-e a-n-d s-l-o-w-l-y?