immortal choice

[afro-elf]

i think there where 3 unions between high elves and mortals

and a number between lesser elves like imrazor the numenorean

and mithrellas ( i think legolas and imrahil spoke on this)



did only the offspring of high elves get to choose immortality or not

or did galador and gilmith (the offspring of the above )get to choose also


if YOU were a 1/2 elf what would you choose

Me i'm going with the immortals

[Gerbil]

As far as I can remember the three unions were:

Tuor and Idril
Beren and Luthien Tinuvial
Arwen and Aragorn

So yup that makes 3 to my memory.
There were no 'lesser' joinings of elves and men - it was something only reserved for the greatest of people within the Ages.

I think there were more cases of Elves being given the choice of remaining first-born or becoming human though - Elrond and family for example. Not sure how far down the generations this choice extended, since lucky old Elrond got his choice as a result of his *thinks* grandparents (Tuor + Idril through Earendil, and Dior (Beren and Luthien's child) + Nimloth). Not to mention Arwen chose too.

Actually, you've just raised a valid point, although not about the people concerned. It regards Dior and Nimloth. Dior was human (born of Beren and Luthien AFTER they'd died and been reborn as humans) but Nimloth was an Elf of Sindarin descent (related to Celeborn). So that means they were human and elf. Does Tolkien mention this or gloss over it because Dior's parents were of 'iffy' race background?

Also Tuor is interesting because he's the only pure human ever to have been accounted among the first born.

And Gimli was the only Dwarf allowed to enter Valinor as well. Jammy bugger.

As for the choice, notice how many of the elves given the choice were more than happy to choose to be human, meaning that eternity must have seemed like a pretty damn long time to them and they were glad to get out of it!

[Ñólendil]

Afro-elf is right about Mithrellas and whos-his-name the Númenórean, and yes, their children would be Half-Elves. I don't know of any other references to the wedding of Man and Elf, however.

Niggle for Gerbil: Lúthien and Beren were technically not reborn, Lúthien simply took the very unique choice given to her of sharing her love's fate. Beren simply returned to Middle-earth.

Actually, you've just raised a valid point, although not about the people concerned. It regards Dior and Nimloth. Dior was human (born of Beren and Luthien AFTER they'd died and been reborn as humans) but Nimloth was an Elf of Sindarin descent (related to Celeborn). So that means they were human and elf. Does Tolkien mention this or gloss over it because Dior's parents were of 'iffy' race background?

Dior was actually the first of the Half-Elven, despite both his parents having mortal fate. Regardless of whether Dior's mother chose the Gift of Men or not, she was in blood 50% Maian and 50% Sindarin. Dior was thus 25% Maian, 25% Sindarin, and 50% Mannish (from Beren). If one accepts that Melian had took on the form of an Elf (not just as raiment), and thus may technically be considered to have had 'Elvish blood', than Dior is indeed 50% Elvish. This works out rather well, I've found. I've actually done the math (that probably sounds very sad), Elrond and Elros really do turn out to be almost exactly Half-Elven (fifty six point something percent, I think -- or near that number).

If Dior was Half-Elven then, I wonder often if Eldarion (the son of Aragorn and Arwen) was. Maybe not, but my head is too cobwebby to remember why.

[Gerbil]

OK, a couple of questions

Who were the 'official' weddings of elves and humans? (Since this is supposed to be a very rare occurence).

Also - surely the point is that when someone of mixed heritage decides to be one race or another they are in effect 'locked' into that choice?

EG Luthien at the end was technically human, regardless of what came before, in the same way Melian was technically elven because she chose to be one (despite the fact that mention of Melian's maia bloodline is often mentioned ).

It makes me wonder because people like Elrond and Elros, despite being called the half-elven, were cleary an Elf and a human once their choice was made. I think the name stuck with them for historical rather than factual reasons.

Which means, if Dior for example is 50% human 50% elf, does this carry on to the next generation as long as he didn't decide to be of one race or another?

I'm actually getting quite confused now!

Who also were technically half-elven? Having parents of one race each AT THE TIME of of birth (and presumably) conception? EG in this case I don't think Dior counts, for (re: niggle :

Niggle for Gerbil: Lúthien and Beren were technically not reborn, Lúthien simply took the very unique choice given to her of sharing her love's fate. Beren simply returned to Middle-earth.

My choice of 'reborn' is indeed a bad word. However, Beren did most definately die, and my interpretation of Luthien's ability to sing for Mandos and bring him back from the dead MUST mean she too died - her spirit broke (as elves can choose to do), that's how I believe her spirit got to the Halls of Mandos in the first place.
Therefore both of them were.... errr... can't think of an accurate word, but the point is they were both dead, then not, and in the process Luthien became in all ways human.

Hmmm, I've not really helped clear things up, but it's actually got my brain whirring now!

[Ñólendil]

Thanks for clarifying about 'reborn'

Ready for a real brain whirring? Here goes:

The three weddings of Elf and Man that Tolkien was talking about were Beren & Lúthien, Tuor & Idril and Aragorn & Arwen. The wedding of whos-his-name and Mithrellas I don't think necessarily contradicts anything, except the popular opinion of Elvish lore-masters who didn't know about it. The wedding of Dior and Nimloth (just like the wedding of Earendil and Elwing, or Elrond and CelebrÃ*an) is not included because both are not pureblooded. In Dior and Nimloth's case, Nimloth was an Elf, but Dior was Half-Elven.

Also - surely the point is that when someone of mixed heritage decides to be one race or another they are in effect 'locked' into that choice?

I've long since forgotten the point of the conversation, sorry. But yeah, when you make the choice you can't go against it.

In fate, Lúthien was absolutely Human. Actually, I would not put it so. She shared the Fate of 'Humans' (as we now call us, I think Tolkien embraced Elves and Dwarves with 'human' too), but was by blood not Human. She went withersoever we go, and could not return, but she was still Elvish/Maian. Melian's case was different. Perhaps in blood she was Elven -- certainly in body -- but in Fate she was still Maian. After the destruction of her body she would not go to the Halls of Mandos any more than Gandalf did (according to Tolkien Gandalf went to Eru).

Melian however even 'as an Elf' as one may very well say retained her Maian power, though perhaps temporarily reduced or hidden. Hidden, more likely, I guess.

Which means, if Dior for example is 50% human 50% elf, does this carry on to the next generation as long as he didn't decide to be of one race or another?

I don't think anybody gets a choice until Eärendil and Elwing. But let's look at the next generation. Dior was 50% Human and (assuming Melian's blood be admitted into the classification of Elvish) 50% Elvish. His wife Nimloth was 100% Elvish. One must reduce these numbers by half to get the percentage of their children, one of whom was Elwing. Elwing would thus be (from Dior) 25% Human and 25% Elvish + (from Elwing) 50% Elvish, which comes out to 75% Elvish and 25% Mannish. Elwing married Earendil, who was 50% Mannish (from his father Tuor) and 50% Elvish (from his mother Idril).

So we've got

Earendil (50% Mannish, 50% Elvish)

and

Elwing (25% Mannish, 75% Elvish)

They wed, so their children would have half of each number (their children being Elros and Elrond). Earendil's blood would become 25% Mannish and 25% Elvish, Elwing's blood would become 12.5% Mannish and 37.5% Elvish.

Combining like terms here, the Mannish blood combines to make Elrond and Elros 37% Mannish, and 62.5% Elvish. Half-elven, right?

This is in blood. In Fate Elrond was an Elf and Elros a Man. But in blood their Half-elves.

The Half-Elves seems to have included Dior, Earendil, Dior's children (which included Elwing), Elrond, Elros, it seems Elrond's children and (I believe) the children of Elessar and Arwen: Eldarion and some daughters.

Oh, also the child of Mithrellas and the Númenórean I keep referring to. I guess that child chose the Fate of Men however, so their descendants would not be given the choice (Elros's children weren't).

It's difficult to say actually whether Eldarion (son of Aragorn and Arwen) was a Half-Elf. In terms of his parents, we're talking about a Half-Elf (Arwen) who chose the Fate of Men and married a Mortal. What happens to that child? If one follows the example of Beren and Lúthien, who's child was Dior (the first of the Pereldar, or Halfelven), than Eldarion would also be a Halfelf. But if one follows the example of Elros and his wife (who was a mortal like Aragorn), than Eldarion would not be Halfelven and would not be given the choice, for Elros's children were not given the choice.

Here's how you solve this problem: figure out why Dior was given the choice but not Elros's children. I asked this question a while back and got an excellent answer from Grand Admiral Reese:

Don't know. Maybe it was because one day Elrond and his children were going to have to move to Aman, and they had to have the choice(as having mortal blood is not allowed in Aman except under VERY unusual circumstances). Elros, having chosen the Gift of Men as his fate would never go to Eressea or Valinor. Thus, his children wouldn't be allowed to choose. Or I could be wrong entirely.

The 'very unusual circumstances' (circumstance, actually) was in referrence to Tuor, who was numbered at last among the Elder Children. I do not doubt that the Admiral is absolutely correct here. Dior, then, was given the choice because The Valar knew there was no chance of him getting to Aman if he chose the Fate of Men (which wasn't in itself a good idea), it being impossible for anyone less than the mightiest mariner and a Silmaril with him. Elros's children, on the other hand, being born in Númenor could not have been given the choice because of Admiral's reason given above.

But Eldarion is in a new posistion. There is no ban set against the coming of anyone to Aman (though those of mortal Fate would die soon) in the Fourth Age, and Aman and Elenna are no longer to be found on the seas of Middle-earth. Let's say Eldarion was given the choice: as an Elf he could sail to Aman, as a Man he could -- sail to Aman. Eldarion was not a Ringbearer, unless he had the permission of a mighty resident of Eressea or Valinor (like Galadriel, possibly what happened with Gimli), I don't think he would be allowed to go. So: no good. Eldarion would not be given the choice and would not be a Half-elf.

So the Half-elves included Dior, Earendil, the children of Dior (including Elwing), Elrond, Elros, it seems Elrond's children, and the son of that Númenórean and Mithrellas.

[UnStashable]

Im not completey sure but i think i rember reading somewhere (proably in H.O.M.E. or something of the like) that Manwe decreed that the sons of Earendil and elwing would have a choice but all lesser or other unions of Elf man would be assigned to the doom of men though a longer life span would be granted unto them.

Or something equivelnt to this. Sorry if this is totally false.

[ringbearer]

Hey UnStashable, LOL on your sig.

[afro-elf]

i think i ask to many questions in one post


any thoughts on the second part of my question

what fate would you choose if you were a half elf

elf or man

[Ñólendil]

I think I prefer my own Gift.

Your memory, UnStashable, may very well be correct. If it is it would mean that Aragorn and Arwen's children would not be given the choice.

[Gerbil]

THanks for the detailed reply
THe facts as you lay out make a lot of sense.
I'm certainly ready to take back my thoughts that when someone becomes 'locked in' to a fate they become in every way of that race (IE Luthien sharing Beren's fate does not make her human).

Of course... now the trickier part.
Let's assume Luthien was half elven, half maian.
How far down the chain of events does this 'blood-line' stay relevant?
In other words, how much is affected directly by your parents, or how many generations back should you trace it?
Because of Melian, we have an opportunity to take a singular example and explore it.
Luthien was often described as a combination of Elves and Maian descent. Her bloodline was therefore described as being a combination of the 3 different 'races'. BUT the actual power passed on as a result seems to have stopped at Luthien. Certainly Luthien had abilities beyond the norm even for the Elves of the Light (of which she was only indirectly descended - Thingol went but came back and stayed, the rest came back, then went again for the long sundering).

So I'm trying to get a feel from this of how many generations affect an individual's racial breakdown. From this, I'd say race-fate-power-wise you only looked to your immediate parents, but for want of a better word, genetic things (such as looks, height, general make-up, intelligence and disposition) flowed much farther down the bloodline.

Makes sense? If not, why not?

[galadriel]

I think Dior's case is distinctly different from that of the descendents of Earendil and Elwing. The fate of a half-elf remained ambiguous until Earendil and Elwing were given the Choice between mortality and immortality. As for Dior; he died of unnatural causes, so his fate was never discussed. We can speculate whether he went to Mandos as an elf or to wherever-it-is-mortals-go as a human, but there's no definite answer. On one hand, Dior would want to spend the rest of eternity with his wife and daughter, on the other hand, he surely misses his parents as well. What's an elf to do?

The ancestors of Imrahil are just as tricky. We know that their descendants are mortal, but why? Did they get a choice? Also, did the elf mother in question (Mithrellas, did you say her name was?) get the opportunity to become human? I'm not sure if the more famous half-elves are a good precedent, since they were specifically given the choice between mortality and immortality. Was this the case for Imrahil's ancestors? If so, intervention by the Valar would probably be neccessary, as it was for Earendil, Elwing, and Luthien.

[galadriel]

Oh... and I guess I'll add my two cents for Eldarion as well. I think it's pretty clear that, if you're a descendent of Earendil and Elwing and your parents choose mortality, you're mortal as well, the Numenoreans being our prime example.

[Gerbil]

I'd guess that where a half-elven and his descendants were undediced on their race, there would be a gradual weakening of the elven bloodline, until eventually it dminished. Can't say I know in the lesser cases who the offspring married, (most likely human though), but I think it accords with Tolkien's general view that human 'power' would end up being the dominant force over elven 'power', be it in actual numbers / strength, or whatever - ME became increasingly less magical / mystical / still not got a good word for what I mean
Hence lord of the Rings is mostly humans - the Elves are mostly figureheads of wisdom who do not supply actual real action.

[galadriel]

I agree about your comments on the gradual diminishing of the Elven bloodline, but I think that the greater question is, did the descendents of the lesser cases get a choice between mortality and immortality, or did they have a human fate by default? I guess we'll never know.

[Selwythe]

I'd be Elf.

I don't see why they'll live on forever. You sick of Valinor, commit suicide and you'll be the source of the first blood on Aman since the Kinslaying.

Sure, you'll be reborn, live for a while and kill yourself again.

[Elvellon]

Elf or Mortal?

I've just found your thread Afo-elf, (now that I know about it it's easy)I am sorry for taking the subject again in mine

changing subjects, any guess about my choice? an hint, look at my name

[afro-elf]

I just replied again to your post but I'll repeat what I said: maybe role-players think alike.

I think that our monikers bears out the above statement and choices we would make.

[Elvellon]

Yup, you bet Afro-elf