Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage

[Elemmírë]

Not sure if it actually fits here... but I don't want to start up a new thread for no apparent reason...

Why is it always said that Arwen/Aragorn was the 3rd marriage between the Eldar and the Edain? I think it's pretty much agreed upon that Eldarion was human, because Arwen became mortal, thus he couldn't be considered peredhel. Wouldn't the same thing apply to Dior? Luthien was mortal at the time of his birth, so technically wouldn't he be considered human?

So what happens with Dior and Nimloth? Why don't they count?

[Wayfarer]

Nimloth was Silvan, not Eldarin.

(Edit) To expound:

The Eldar were only one group of elves (those that made the journey to Valinor). So when it talks about the three marraiges of the eldar and the edain, it means one specific group of humans (the three tribes) and one specific group of elves. For all we know, there could have been dozens, or even hundreds, of other marraiges between elves and men - between Edain and other elves, or between Eldar and other men. These particular relationships are singled out because they're high profile, occuring as they do among the 'aristocracy' of the two races.

[Elemmírë]

Oh how very confusing. I have only a half a minute before my mom kicks me off this computer.

I had read that Nimloth was close kin to Celeborn, who was obviously Sindarin (in one version, at least ).

Aren't the Eldar all of the Elves except for the Avari? Rather than being the ones who finally made it to Aman, they were the ones who at least started on the journey. I don't have enough time to find a quote...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Nimloth was Sindarin elf of Doriath, a close relative of Celeborn. She was descended from Elwe's borther, Elmo (who did not make it into the Silmarillion text) through Galathil and Galahod.
Silvan elves refer to a cultural divide from the 'more advanced' Sindar and Noldor. Silvan included both Eldarin and Avari groups and combinations of them. All the Avari that appear in the texts, as well as most of the Nandor (the Telrin Eladar who originally halted east of the Misty Mountains) would be Silvan. Most of the population of the Mirkwoood elves, as well as the more original population of Lorien (before it was heavily impacted by frist refugees from Beleriand, and later from Eregion) would have been silvan of a mixture of Nandor and Avari.

[Elemmírë]

Thank you, Lefty.

So technically, shouldn't the Nimloth/Dior marriage be considered a fourth (well, chronologically second ) marriage between the Eldar and the Edain?

[Lefty Scaevola]

A question I have pondered. Dior's parents were both mortal when he was concieved, and his Father always mortal. Luthiun, though mortal then, was concieved of an Elf, and a Maia in elf form. Nimloth is all Elf. JRRT never seems to hav gotten around to writing about Dior's nature.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well it does say in the Sil that he was the first of a threefold race- Edain, Eldar and Maiar.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Luthian father was an elf, her mother was a Maia in elf form, and she was made mortal by the Valar, to be with Beren. What this state of having been made mortal would men to her later child in respect of his elf/mortal status is not spelled out, but the best guess is that her would inherit mortal from her, since elf vs mortal was in the nature of the soul/spirit, rather than genetic.

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well it does say in the Sil that he was the first of a threefold race- Edain, Eldar and Maiar.

Really? That's interesting. I don't remember that part.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Luthian father was an elf, her mother was a Maia in elf form, and she was made mortal by the Valar, to be with Beren. What this state of having been made mortal would men to her later child in respect of his elf/mortal status is not spelled out, but the best guess is that her would inherit mortal from her, since elf vs mortal was in the nature of the soul/spirit, rather than genetic.

So you're saying that most likely, Dior could technically be considered fully human.

Then again Maiarin aspect of it probably confuses things a bit more than the Eldarin..

Something I've wondered about Luthien, could she really be considered half-Maia, considering that Melian had, for all intents and purposes, permanently become an Elf? Though, much of the Lay of Leithian doesn't seem possible without taking into account her divine descent...

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

So you're saying that most likely, Dior could technically be considered fully human.

Then again Maiarin aspect of it probably confuses things a bit more than the Eldarin..

Something I've wondered about Luthien, could she really be considered half-Maia, considering that Melian had, for all intents and purposes, permanently become an Elf? Though, much of the Lay of Leithian doesn't seem possible without taking into account her divine descent...

Melian was still more than an Elf. Think of how powerfull she was, and her wisdom (see future possibilities).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Lenya

Really? That's interesting. I don't remember that part.

From The Ruin of Doriath:

The Dior arose, and about is neck he clasped the Nauglamir; and now he appeared the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.

[Lenya]

Oh, Thanks