Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Ulmo

Arwen never chose to remain Elven - where did you hear this? She chose a mortal life.

A Mortal life perhaps but that does not mean she became Mortal. She died, still young, two years after an aged Aragorn dies. She wanders the woods of Lorien before lying down to die in her greif. She dies because of the bite of the mortal life, the loss of Aragorn! Most likely she lay down to die and returned to the Halls of Mandos. Not to mention where are the guidlines for half-elven choices!? Arwen had already lived for almost two thousand years before having to choose!? When exactlly do half-elven have to make their choice? Is it ever stated anywhere in Tolkiens writings? Personaly I think she made the choice before she even met Aragorn.

[Ulmo]

I'm afraid that's not the case.

A Mortal life perhaps but that does not mean she became Mortal.

No, she became mortal. That's what it means. See below.

Not to mention where are the guidlines for half-elven choices!? Arwen had already lived for almost two thousand years before having to choose!? When exactlly do half-elven have to make their choice? Is it ever stated anywhere in Tolkiens writings?

I told of the guidelines set for Arwen and her brothers. They are found in both The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's letters. As Elrond's children, the choice of his family was extended to them - they had until their father left Middle-earth to decide whether they would be mortal or immortal. Until they made their individual choices, they would age as Eldar. They were not elves.

Letter No. 145:

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all.

Appendix A in The Lord of the Rings:

To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Letter No. 153:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was CelebrÃ*an dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I stand somewhat corrected, well done Ulmo. I really need to, and have been wanting to for some time, get The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien! So much of my misunderstandings are found in that book! Well... on to my next argument....

[Ulmo]

No worries! This is a case that's very often misunderstood (especially since it isn't handled directly within the main text). I'm glad I could help.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I know what you mean Halbarad. It happens to me alot to.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not have the letters, but I have read most of that somewhere. It would either have to be HoME or perhaps a Michael Martinez article.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

I stand somewhat corrected, well done Ulmo. I really need to, and have been wanting to for some time, get The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien! So much of my misunderstandings are found in that book! Well... on to my next argument....

The Letters and Unfinished Tales are the books I constantly recommend to people who have just finished LotR and want to learn more. The Silmarillion can wait, IMHO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've read Unfinished Tales. But I haven't read the Letters.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I have read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and im starting in random order the first 5 books of the HoME. Though I really want to get the Letters, last time I was at the book store I picked it up and, had no cash, boooo. Anyhow....

[Ulmo]

The Letters and Unfinished Tales are the books I constantly recommend to people who have just finished LotR and want to learn more. The Silmarillion can wait, IMHO.

If you haven't read The Silmarillion, a large chunk of Unfinished Tales isn't going to make sense because of the volume of First and Second Age material present. Furthermore, it would be a huge spoiler (the Letters would be too). Better to read the Silmarillion story first, then come to Unfinished Tales and Tolkien's letters to see further notes and explanations with some additional story.

I'd read in this order... The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales/The Letters of JRR Tolkien, HoME

HoME is definitely the final step. The letters can be read randomly alongside Unfinished Tales, or with The Silmarillion if you are halfway through or so. Many of the early letters are just letters to the publisher, friends, children, and his wife, then start his letters to Christopher about the progression of The Lord of the Rings. Then start the most interesting letters where Tolkien reveals his thought process behind certain events, the principles being displayed, etc.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've rread them all apart from The Letters and HoME, which I am hoping to get soon.

[Lenya]

I simply loved Silmarillion and I am 100% a Tolkien fan, but I paged through Unfinished Tales and I am not sure I will enjoy reading it. It looks a bit to dry to read. Do you think it is worth it to read it?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Lenya

I simply loved Silmarillion and I am 100% a Tolkien fan, but I paged through Unfinished Tales and I am not sure I will enjoy reading it. It looks a bit to dry to read. Do you think it is worth it to read it?

I'm not sure it's the right place for this kind of question, but...
In my opinion, The Unfinished Tales worth reading. They're not as good as the Sil, and probably passed less 'polishing' by Tolkien.. and still I at least found them interesting.. and enjoyable.

[Lenya]

Thanx. Maybe I will read it, but first I must find The History of Middle Earth Vol. 3 - it's simply my favourite (the part with Beren & Luthien) and I must read the whole thing.

[Wayfarer]

If you want to get technical about it, there never has been a marraige between 'man' and 'elf'. Beren and Luthien were a 'Man' and an 'Elf Maid'. Since (as far as I know) the term 'elf' is canonically always used to refer to a /male/ elf.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

If you want to get technical about it, there never has been a marraige between 'man' and 'elf'. Beren and Luthien were a 'Man' and an 'Elf Maid'. Since (as far as I know) the term 'elf' is canonically always used to refer to a /male/ elf.

I am neither inclined to agree nor to search the texts for an exception.

[Lenya]

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Lenya

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, either. There are plenty of "Elven maid" passages. I'm not sure Tolkien ever wrote about "man and elf" marriages. That phrasing is, as best I can recall, a modernism devised by readers of the book.

Tolkien wrote about the three unions of the Eldar and the Edain in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Occasionally, people will ask about or want to discuss the three marriages of Elves and Men, but there were more marriages than that (at least one more). It seems like a lot of people just sort of confuse "Eldar and Edain" with "Elves and Men" (and it doesn't help that both names were supposedly originally applied to the races and then later on applied only to sub-groups).

[Attalus]

He desribed Galadriel as 'a slender elf-woman,' IIRC.

[Wayfarer]

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

I don't think that's at all correct. The difference in the terms used has nothing to do with the importance of one sex versus another, and everything to do with the fact that it is nescessary to distinguish between male and female.

The terms used by the elves were actually nér and nÃ*s. Meaning, respectively, male and female (of any species). So an elf would have probably phrased it as a marraige between an atan nér and an elda nÃ*s - that is, between a human male and a female of the eldar.

So, as near as I can hazard a guess...
atan nér - Male Human, Man
atan nÃ*s - Female Human, Woman
elda nér - Male Elf, Elf
elda nÃ*s - Female Elf, Elf-Maid

Most probably, the 'elf' and 'elf maid' is just a translation of the elven words into english (er... westron), using a format similar to 'man' and 'woman' for convenience.