Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage

[Lefty Scaevola]

JRRT notes in HoME says effectively that humans and elves are the same species geneticly, and were indistinguishable as infants, that the difference between them was the difference in their frear and that the spirit adapted the development of the body to better fit it. The biggest differnce in their spirits was that jumens had some place esle to go and elves did not. Thus the human spirit adapted the body for mortality an moving on, and the elvish spirit adapted the body of long life because it was bound to the Earth. He said the differences started become fairly noticeable around age 6 or 7.
Thus, once the being bound to the earth is removed from the spirits of Luthian and Arwen, their spirit will begin to readapt them to mortality and they should gradually become more human like and less efl like. Because they are fullly grown adults, the adaption smay take place more slowly than it does among children. Being genecticly the same species explains there being no problem with interbreeding. The sparseness and nature of this JRRT idea leaves enomours room to speculate about what a mixed human/elf would be or what there death fate was without the intevetion of the Valar to make them one or the other.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Interesting. Never seen that before.

[Artanis]

Neither have I. That is, I read in Laws and Customs that children of Elves and Men could not be told apart during the first years, but that part with the fëa adapting the rhöa to fit better was new to me. Could you tell us where you found that Lefty?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not recall the location, I will try to find it in the index.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have found some passing refenrence to it in OF DEATH AND THE SEVERANCE OF FRE AND HRONDO IN 'laws b' in Morgoths Ring page 219. But IIRC, it was more directly presneted elswhere, maybe thoses not discussing what would happen to a mortal few/hroa that live in Aman. Does anyone recall where that was.

[Artanis]

Wasn't that in Morgoth's Ring too? Myths transformed, at the very end of the book, I think.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

That's what Lefty said.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I know thisis going to be a more or less Lord of the Rings question but I don't want to start a whole new thread for it. My question is, Beren and Luthien were the first Elf/Man marrige, correct? And from that line came Elrond and Elros, the half-elven! So... If Arwen, Elven, and Aragorn, Edain, had a son, Eldarion!, wouldn't he be half elven too? Or at the least on a similar level of Tar-Minyatur or Tar-Amandil!? Could Eldarion have in a way recreated a nobal race of New-Númenoreans!?

[Artanis]

Well, one of the purposes of the marriage between Arwen and Aragorn was to renew the Elvish strain in the blood of Men.

Lets look at the maths: If we for simplicity say that Lúthien was 100% Elf and not half divine, then Dior was half Elven, Dior's daughter Elwing was 1/4 human, and Elwing's sons Elrond and Elros were 3/8 humans, since their father was Eärendil son of Idril and Tuor. That would make Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir 3/16 human and 13/16 elvish. Hardly half-elven anymore. (If anyone would like to compute the percentage of Elvish blood left in Aragorn, please go ahead )

But if we forget the maths, then I think the term Half-Elven denotes someone who by the grace of Eru has been given a choice of which of the two races to belong to. That was true for Elros and Elrond, and Elrond's children, but not for Eldarion.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Yet since Arwen choose to remain Elven she was then full elven, even though she can be considered, somehow, halfelven. And Aragorn who was by no means fully human had edain and elf in him as well So, their son would have been in an extreamly rough mathatics half and half. So he may not have been given the choice to be elven but that would then give him the comparrison to Tar-Minyatur not Elros. The already human form of Elros... as if Eldarion had the choice and made it? Also I think it is worth noting that Eldarion also has Maia in him! Melian, a maia become wife of Thingol and mother of Luthien! So both Aragorn and Arwen had part Maia in them! So if they can be considered related(Olorin and Melian) then Aragorn is related in a distant way to Gandalf!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And to Sauron!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

You know, I have actually never once thought of that! I only think of Gandalf when I think of those kinds of relations but if it were that way then you're right! Sauron is Aragorns 183rd cousin! haha... interesting!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah.
Sauron: Come on Aragorn. Come give uncle Sauron a hug!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Think about the family reunion!? Like most familys, they all got to pretend they actually like eachother! Gandalf drinking a glass of ale with Sauron. Aragorn gettin the birds and bees chat with elrond.... haha

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The Gandalf goes and asks cousin Saruman wheher he'd like another beer or perhaps some pipe weed.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!? Why was half elven waited to be given to elrond and elros when they are 13/somethingeth elvish!?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!? Why was half elven waited to be given to elrond and elros when they are 13/somethingeth elvish!?

It wasn't until Elrond and Elros' days that it really became an issue to which race they would belong. Well, actually it started with their parents Eärendil and Elwing but since those two have technically left Middle-earth before their choice was made I reckon their sons were the first to receive the name of 'Half-elf'. Because it was from that time on that Half-elves had the choice to which kindred they would belong: Elves or Men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What would happen if it were a dwarf or a hobbit that married an elf. If they choose to be elven would they suddenly grow.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What would happen if it were a dwarf or a hobbit that married an elf. If they choose to be elven would they suddenly grow.

That's a rather silly question, in my opinion; and no one could asnwer it, because it didn't happen and will never happen.

I can tell you, that if a dwarf married an elf, (and they would never marry, but anyway..), then he'd stay a dwarf, and the elf will still be an elf.

[Ulmo]

Arwen was not an elf to begin with. She aged as one until her choice (which was required of her around the time her father left Middle-earth). The same was required of her brothers, though they put it off a little longer.

That would make Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir 3/16 human and 13/16 elvish. Hardly half-elven anymore. (If anyone would like to compute the percentage of Elvish blood left in Aragorn, please go ahead)

Regardless, any amount of mortal blood made one into a mortal being - prior to Earendil's family being given the choice, Manwe declared that any being with any mortal blood was mortal.

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!?

Dior wasn't 50/50 either, as noted previously. His mother's mother was an Ainu.

Yet since Arwen choose to remain Elven she was then full elven, even though she can be considered, somehow, halfelven.

Arwen never chose to remain Elven - where did you hear this? She chose a mortal life.

Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?

No. This is a common misconception (brought about in part, or spread by, the movies) - elves cannot choose to become mortal, nor do they automatically become mortal by marrying or having intercourse with a mortal. Only one elf - Luthien - was allowed to choose mortality, and that was a special gift granted by Eru as proposed by Manwe for Luthien and Beren's great deeds.

Additionally, Tuor is the only man to be made immortal, but likewise, this was not because he wed or had a son by Idril - it was a privelege granted later when Gondolin was abandoned, a gift for his deeds and obedience to Ulmo.

Elves can die, if they wish to

Where did this come from? If by "if they wish to," you mean they grieve themselves to death or jump out in front of a spear, that's true, I guess.

Also, here's the quote someone asked about earlier (that notes the biological similarities between elves and humans). It's in Letter No. 153 (a popular one for it addresses many issues throroughly, including Earendil's family's situation).

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.

This letter was written in September of 1954 (after The Lord of the Rings). It doesn't include a 'third' union (as someone referred to that quote before) because Tolkien a) had no idea that anyone would ever learn of Imrazor/Mithrellas and b) the marriages of the Dior/Nimloth and Aragorn/Arwen don't really qualify. While Nimloth was full elven, Dior was not a man - just a half-elf. The Peredhil are neither Eldar nor Edain. Just Peredhil. Tolkien emphasized this in his letters, as here in No. 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.