Tree men... giants... on the North Moors

[Valandil]

From chapter 2 of 'Fellowship', at The Green Dragon, Sam recounts that his cousin Hal claimed to see a giant of some kind - maybe a 'tree man' on a hunting trip up to the Northfarthing.

Real or illusion? Over-active imagination? Is Sam too gullible, or is Ted too cynical?

If a real creature, do you think JRRT intended to maybe go somewhere with this when he began to write the story? And is it an Ent of some kind? Or a giant - like those who throw boulders around in the Misty Mountains?

What do you guys think?

[Olmer]

If a real creature, do you think JRRT intended to maybe go somewhere with this when he began to write the story?

Of course. It grew into a "lost Entwifes" connection.Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ events imperfectly, that the story of the book consists “the vistas of yet more legends and history“.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

If a real creature, do you think JRRT intended to maybe go somewhere with this when he began to write the story? And is it an Ent of some kind? Or a giant - like those who throw boulders around in the Misty Mountains?

I think the very first jotting of this had to do with a mannish type of giant. As first written Sam says 'giants' as big as a tower or a tree, even though this was changed at the time of writing (thus somewhat quickly it would seem) to: '... these Tree-Men, these here -- giants.' In my opinion, at this point anyway, 'Tree-Men' was inspired by the earlier comparison to a tree, with respect to size.

Also, it's interesting to note that in the early writing of this chapter giants were mentioned in narration right before the conversation in the Green Dragon is described:

'Goblins were multiplying again and reappearing. Trolls of a new and malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk, only far bigger and stronger than Men the [?ordinary] Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry.'

JRRT (draft chapter) Ancient History

[Galin]

And is it an Ent of some kind?

Incidentally, regarding this point, I think the story as told in the Dragon would have to be off by a considerable exaggeration for an actual Ent of any kind to be involved -- as, although 'giants' by mannish standards, and especially Hobbit standards, Ents are notably shorter than Elm trees (and towers).

Treebeard is described as 'only' at least 14 feet tall, and in The Road To Isengard, three Ents are described 'as tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more...' Even granting that the Ents who reminded of the fir tress were the tallest, they could be as 'short' as 18 feet tall and still be (arguably) much taller than other Ents.

So Ents are very tall and fittingly enough called 'giants' in my opinion, but an English Elm for instance, averages between 50 and close to 100 feet tall!

In Marquette MSS 4/2/19 Tolkien made various calculations of the length and speed of an ent-stride, concluding: 'an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least, probably 4 ft a stride.' Hammond and Scull, Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings

A 4 foot stride is yards away from a 7 yard stride!


Other references to giants in the published text include: in Three Is Company the word giant is employed again:

'Giants and other portents on the borders of the Shire were forgotten for more important matters: Mr. Frodo...'

And moving on to Bree (including a comparison to trees regarding height):

'He [Sam] had imagined himself meeting giants taller than trees, and other creatures even more terrifying, some time or other in the course of his journey, but at the moment he was finding his first sight of Men and their tall houses quite enough, indeed too much for the dark end of a tiring day.'

However, and perhaps confusingly, back to the drafts (if I read the information correctly). This is an edited version compared to The History of Middle-Earth information.


From probably mid October 1938 -- December 1938 the 'Third Phase' is completed, meaning Tolkien returns to the beginning of the story making a new fair copy manuscript of the whole work as far as the conversation between Frodo and Gloin at Rivendell -- and this phase includes the mention of Gandalf being imprisoned by 'Giant Treebeard.' Thus a reference to Giant Treebeard (however conceived, with his admittedly suggestive name), exists quite close on the heels of the first version of the conversation in the Green Dragon.


And in the draft texts for The Lord of the Rings the creatures that would later become 'Ents' were actually huge, and even the forest appears to have been huge itself (concerning height), at one point anyway.


From Dec 1938 we jump a bit to February 1939, where Tolkien states in a letter: 'though there is no dragon (so far) there is going to be a Giant' Jump to Summer: on a letter dated 27-29 July 1939 'Treebeard' emerges: in this short text Frodo thinks Treebeard's leg is a tree-trunk and he has a 'rootlike foot and many branching toes'. Treebeard is in league with the Enemy here, pretending to be friendly. An outline page dated August 1939 reads: 'Adventure with Giant Tree Beard in Forest'

Continuing with the tale, Gandalf (in the house of Elrond) will warn of the Giant Treebeard who haunts the forest between the river and the South Mts. And at about this time Tolkien will then write an outline in which he describes: 'Fangorn is an evergreen (oak holly?) forest. Trees of vast height. (…) If Treebeard comes in at all -- let him be kindly and rather good? About 50 feet high with barky skin. Hair and beard rather like twigs. Clothed in dark green like a mail of short shining leaves. He has a castle in the black mountains and many thanes and followers. They look like young trees [?when] they stand. (…) The tree-giants assail the besiegers and rescue Trotter &c. and raise siege.'

So not relatively long after the conversation in the Dragon was written, Treebeard is certainly more like a tree than simply being as tall as one, and he has thanes that look like young trees.




But it would still be a while after writing the first drafts of the conversation in the Dragon before Tolkien would reach the point in the book where the 'Ents' as readers know them came to be invented -- and the story of the Entwives (specifically) was imagined.

'Thus though I knew for years that Frodo would run into a tree-adventure somewhere far down the Great River, I have no recollection of inventing Ents. I came at last to the point, and wrote the 'Treebeard' chapter without any recollection of any previous thought: just as it now is. And then I saw that, of course, it had not happened to Frodo at all.'

JRRT, 1956, draft letter 180

Before we get to the actual chapter Treebeard there is a page of notes about how Ents came to be, including statements like: 'Did first lord of the Elves make Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees?', or wondering about what they are, with: 'hnau that have gone tree-like, or trees that have become hnau?' and other details. But by the end of 1941 -- beginning of 1942: Tolkien finishes book II and began book III, completing the chapter Treebeard around the end of Jan 1942.


And at this point Treebeard is considerably shortened! the original draft for the actual chapter Treebeard has the Ent at 10 feet tall, revised to 12, revised to 14 (at least).


Of course the argument can then become something like: Tolkien, being aware of the conversation in the Dragon as already written, likewise will be aware of a suggestion of an Entwife in the Shire (no matter the size difference compared to a full grown Elm) after writing the chapter Treebeard... and so by virtue of these things appearing in The Lord of the Rings...

[Varnafindë]

A small, somewhat related question:

Originally Posted by Galin

'hnau that have gone tree-like, or trees that have become hnau?'

Did Tolkien get the word "hnau" from C.S. Lewis, or did Lewis get it from him, or did they both get it from somewhere else?

[Aikanáro]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Did Tolkien get the word "hnau" from C.S. Lewis, or did Lewis get it from him, or did they both get it from somewhere else?

From the information I can find online, it seems as if the word was invented by Lewis. Tolkien later used it in his notes on the Ents - it's mentioned in a couple of places as one of the aspects of Lewis' work that influenced Tolkien.

It's a good word!