Is Middle Earth worth fighting for? It seems empty and abandoned to me

Dark Lord Sauron · 12-14-2002, 02:23 PM

As we all know, Middle Earth has been constantly plagued by warfare, throughout its entire history. But by the time the Dark Lord begins to rise again, is it REALLY worth fighting for? For all intents and purposes, this is the only section of Midddle Earth worth examining, as this is where LOTR takes place:

http://lotrmaps.middle-earth.us/maps/r3t_M48.gif
http://lotrmaps.middle-earth.us/maps/r3t_M24.gif

(Notes: the second map is the better map; I only chose the first one also because it lets you see the former Kingdom of Arnor. Both maps are from 2000 years before LOTR, so Gondor is much bigger).

Now lets see:

The North: Arnor. This kingdom was overrun by Sauron's forces, but by the time they had gotten there there wasn't much to overrun. Somehow the kingdom had fallen into a state of anarchy, and the kingdom just disappeared. Afterwards, even into LOTR, this place was leaderless. Settlements like Bree were some of the last vestiges of civilization up there.

Moria: overrun by the Goblins.

Isengard: Turned into a fortress for Sauron.

Gondor: The maps above show Gondor at the height of its power. At the beginning of LOTR it was but a shadow of this. The Nazgul had taken over Minas Morgul and were knocking on the doors of Minas Tirith. Umbar, showed at the bottom of the map, was taken by the Harad. Dunland and Enedwaith had fallen out of the borders (to the West), as well as Dagorlad (the northeast).

Calenardhon: Rohan?

Amon Sul: ruins.

Imladris: I assume this is where Elrond lives. This is the last place in Middle Earth where you will see Elves, once the mightiest of races, besides Lorien.

Lorien: OK, so you may not be able to take the place using Orcs. However, put one Balrog there, and the place would be burning in ten minutes (Balrogs used to be Maiar, like Sauron).

In fact, both maps have many small kingdoms. There are, however, two regions that are huge in comparison: the Harad and the Rhun. Both are ruled by uncivilized men, and both are allied with Sauron. If we were to show the ENTIRE Middle Earth, in fact, these two peoples would dominate the realms of the "civilized."

And just how mighty are the civilized? In the movies, the only places where you see ANYONE, outside the Shire, is in the places mentioned above. When they are travelling between the Amon Sul and Elrond's house, for example, you see NOTHING. No other people, no other towns, nothing (except maybe Sauron's armies). Think for a minute. As they were going throughout Middle Earth in the first LOTR movie, you saw a lot of ruins. Most of the place, in fact was ruins. Only a few scattered places here and there, plus the realm of the Dark Lord. Middle Earth looks like it was mostly abandoned, with only a scattered people here and there.

In fact, this is not far from the truth. In the Simarillion, there once were hundreds of thousands of Elves. However, in fighting Morgoth and Sauron, many thousands were mutated into Orcs and Goblins, and many others settled into the West. Remember how the land in which the Simarillion takes place (I believe it was called Bereliand), was utterly destroyed, and sunk? If so, many of the Gray Elves must have been also killed. How Elrond and Galadriel managed to escape from there before the entire land region went down under escapes me. So the Elves, once the mightiest of peoples, have mostly abandoned Middle Earth. After LOTR, there is not one Elf left on the continent.

Who did they leave the land to? The Dwarves seemed to start out as a small race, mostly ruined from fighting Morgoth. Moria, one of their main homes was destroyed. (Another question: the Goblins there seemed to be living there, not like an army of Sauron. Can we conclude that this once was an army, but utterly fell into a state of anarchy, therefore becoming a microcosm of Middle Earth?) The Men you saw in the first LOTR movie, those were good examples of Men (keep in mind the fact of the Men at Bree, remaints of Arnor. These people seem to be degenerating back toward the uncivilized ways of the Harad and Rhun). Without a doubt, the vast majority of Men are uncivilized and allied to the Dark Lord. And the Hobbits are a very small minority. Without a doubt, the majority of that section of Middle Earth is covered with Orcs, and the rest by uncivilized Man.

So, in conclusion, I believe that in the end, even though the Dark Lord was indeed defeated, this only saved the last vestiges of civilization on Middle Earth. That does not mean civilization will flourish. The vast majority of Middle Earth is still run by Orcs and uncivilized Man, and it seems like Darkness still rules the continent.

ArwenEvenstar · 12-14-2002, 03:25 PM

You have a point there but in the end good nearly always prevailed

Welcome to the 'Moot!

Elf.Freak · 12-14-2002, 03:42 PM

if you think about it, if Middle Earth is completly owned by Sauron and his evil minions, all the other races will be used as slaves or even killed. i'm sure no one would like to be a slave to Sauron seing as he is probably the most feared person in Middle Earth, so in a way, the races are fighting for freedom. That answer your question?

Falagar · 12-14-2002, 03:48 PM

Everything can be rebuilt

Silverstripe · 12-15-2002, 12:26 AM

LOL. That was a very interesting introduction, um...Sauron. Hey! Everyone, ever notice that both Morgoth and Sauron are now among us and we don't seem to care much? LOL.

cassiopeia · 12-15-2002, 01:18 AM

Just some points I would like to make:

Isengard was turned into a fortress by Saruman and yes, Imladris is where Elrond lives. :rollseyes:
Balrogs are still maia.
What has the movies have to do with this forum?
I'm pretty sure there were still elves in ME in the fourth age.

End of rant.

You ask is ME worth fighting for? Well, yes, if you don't want to be Sauron's slave for the rest of you life! ME is not empty, you don't need to take over every little part of the world. Isn't the beauty of Rivendell, Lorien, the Shire or Minas Tirith worth fighting for?

Mirahzi · 12-15-2002, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Imladris: I assume this is where Elrond lives. This is the last place in Middle Earth where you will see Elves, once the mightiest of races, besides Lorien.

You forgot about the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood.

Quote:

Lorien: OK, so you may not be able to take the place using Orcs. However, put one Balrog there, and the place would be burning in ten minutes (Balrogs used to be Maiar, like Sauron).

It's more complicated than simply sending a Balrog off to raze a colony. Also, Lothlorien is protected by more than just arrows.

Quote:

In fact, both maps have many small kingdoms. There are, however, two regions that are huge in comparison: the Harad and the Rhun. Both are ruled by uncivilized men, and both are allied with Sauron. If we were to show the ENTIRE Middle Earth, in fact, these two peoples would dominate the realms of the "civilized."

I don't believe they were necessarily uncivilized, considering they had managed to contend with Gondor. Also, the Corsairs of Umbar had the ability to build great ships of war.

Quote:

In fact, this is not far from the truth. In the Simarillion, there once were hundreds of thousands of Elves. However, in fighting Morgoth and Sauron, many thousands were mutated into Orcs and Goblins, and many others settled into the West.

Actually, Tolkien later changed his mind about the origin of orcs; rather, they originated from corrupted men.

Quote:

After LOTR, there is not one Elf left on the continent.

Cassiopeia is correct in stating that there were elves left in Middle Earth during the fourth age, such as the wood elves in East Lorien.

Quote:

So, in conclusion, I believe that in the end, even though the Dark Lord was indeed defeated, this only saved the last vestiges of civilization on Middle Earth. That does not mean civilization will flourish. The vast majority of Middle Earth is still run by Orcs and uncivilized Man, and it seems like Darkness still rules the continent.

Don't forget that our own Earth and Middle Earth are one and the same. So, clearly civilization has flourished. That is, if you can consider this civilization.

Keith K · 12-15-2002, 06:07 AM

It is often considered a "good fight" to defend your home or country. It is a fight for a "way of life". In that context ME is worth fighting for irregardless of population density.

Lollypopgurl · 12-18-2002, 07:10 PM

Well.... I don't think anyone really wants to work for Sauron the rest of their lives.

Besides, he'll just grow in terms of power and go on to claim the Blessed Realm. I know the Valar are all powerful and everything, but if you keep giving up all the 'abandoned' places sooner or later he'll assult Valinor.

Or maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Keith K · 12-19-2002, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Well.... I don't think anyone really wants to work for Sauron the rest of their lives.

Besides, he'll just grow in terms of power and go on to claim the Blessed Realm. I know the Valar are all powerful and everything, but if you keep giving up all the 'abandoned' places sooner or later he'll assault Valinor.

Or maybe I'm just a pessimist.

I agree. If you give him an inch he will take a mile from you. Eventually he would have made an attempt on Valinor. Probably through treachery or some other indirect way. I don't see him making a direct assault however. What with the 'bent seas' and all. It would be a logistical nightmare to arrange such an attack as Ar-Pharazon tried back at the end of the Second Age. It's probably physically impossible anyway.

Beleg Strongbow · 12-19-2002, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith K
It would be a logistical nightmare to arrange such an attack as Ar-Pharazon tried back at the end of the Second Age.

Yeah, and that didn't work anyway.

Quote:

In the movies, the only places where you see ANYONE, outside the Shire

That's because they took deserted routes.

Katt_knome_hobbit · 12-19-2002, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lollypopgurl
Well.... I don't think anyone really wants to work for Sauron the rest of their lives.

I would. Of course, I'm a loonie.

Quote:

Besides, he'll just grow in terms of power and go on to claim the Blessed Realm. I know the Valar are all powerful and everything, but if you keep giving up all the 'abandoned' places sooner or later he'll assult Valinor.

I aggree, but will he win or the Valinor? There is a good chance that evil will win. I always wanted to see evil win.

Quote:

Or maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Pessimists rule the world luv.

Evil needs to win! I'm on the side of evil!

Lefty Scaevola · 12-20-2002, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silverstripe
LOL. That was a very interesting introduction, um...Sauron. Hey! Everyone, ever notice that both Morgoth and Sauron are now among us and we don't seem to care much? LOL.

No problem. They have expended so much of their power in violence, hate, and reincarnation, that even an old Roman (admittedly heroic one) like me could womp up on them.

***Rían*** · 12-20-2002, 01:50 AM

Hey Lefty, what happened to your sig?

Lanelf · 12-20-2002, 06:32 AM

Well, I'd fight for the Shire! *smacks self over the head with shoe for sheer stupidity of that line* Well, I would! And for the Elves' homes. Hey, the Men can fight for themselves, OK?

just kidding, don't kill me please. Oh, and the Dwarves... Hey, what are axes for?
Lanelf.

Beleg Strongbow · 12-20-2002, 09:23 AM

I think that Lanelf has a point! Everyone would fight for their home (except perhaps the elves, since they could leave). No one else had an escape. Their choice was to fight and save themselves, or become servants of Sauron.

L@ur@y Elven Warrior · 12-21-2002, 11:35 AM

A lot of people would fight for their home. I think the Elves would fight of their home.

Elf.Freak · 12-21-2002, 12:44 PM

Sam says something about that in TTT, come to think of it!

Tar-Elendil · 12-21-2002, 02:48 PM

anything is worth fighting for under the right circumstances. you say that sauron controlled middle-earth? possibly some parts.. like his dominion of mordor..
the elves could flee to valinor.
where could men and the other races go besides to thralldom and death if they hadnt fought?

anything is worth fighting for

12-14-2002, 02:23 PM	#1
Dark Lord Sauron Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 26	Is Middle Earth worth fighting for? It seems empty and abandoned to me As we all know, Middle Earth has been constantly plagued by warfare, throughout its entire history. But by the time the Dark Lord begins to rise again, is it REALLY worth fighting for? For all intents and purposes, this is the only section of Midddle Earth worth examining, as this is where LOTR takes place: http://lotrmaps.middle-earth.us/maps/r3t_M48.gif http://lotrmaps.middle-earth.us/maps/r3t_M24.gif (Notes: the second map is the better map; I only chose the first one also because it lets you see the former Kingdom of Arnor. Both maps are from 2000 years before LOTR, so Gondor is much bigger). Now lets see: The North: Arnor. This kingdom was overrun by Sauron's forces, but by the time they had gotten there there wasn't much to overrun. Somehow the kingdom had fallen into a state of anarchy, and the kingdom just disappeared. Afterwards, even into LOTR, this place was leaderless. Settlements like Bree were some of the last vestiges of civilization up there. Moria: overrun by the Goblins. Isengard: Turned into a fortress for Sauron. Gondor: The maps above show Gondor at the height of its power. At the beginning of LOTR it was but a shadow of this. The Nazgul had taken over Minas Morgul and were knocking on the doors of Minas Tirith. Umbar, showed at the bottom of the map, was taken by the Harad. Dunland and Enedwaith had fallen out of the borders (to the West), as well as Dagorlad (the northeast). Calenardhon: Rohan? Amon Sul: ruins. Imladris: I assume this is where Elrond lives. This is the last place in Middle Earth where you will see Elves, once the mightiest of races, besides Lorien. Lorien: OK, so you may not be able to take the place using Orcs. However, put one Balrog there, and the place would be burning in ten minutes (Balrogs used to be Maiar, like Sauron). In fact, both maps have many small kingdoms. There are, however, two regions that are huge in comparison: the Harad and the Rhun. Both are ruled by uncivilized men, and both are allied with Sauron. If we were to show the ENTIRE Middle Earth, in fact, these two peoples would dominate the realms of the "civilized." And just how mighty are the civilized? In the movies, the only places where you see ANYONE, outside the Shire, is in the places mentioned above. When they are travelling between the Amon Sul and Elrond's house, for example, you see NOTHING. No other people, no other towns, nothing (except maybe Sauron's armies). Think for a minute. As they were going throughout Middle Earth in the first LOTR movie, you saw a lot of ruins. Most of the place, in fact was ruins. Only a few scattered places here and there, plus the realm of the Dark Lord. Middle Earth looks like it was mostly abandoned, with only a scattered people here and there. In fact, this is not far from the truth. In the Simarillion, there once were hundreds of thousands of Elves. However, in fighting Morgoth and Sauron, many thousands were mutated into Orcs and Goblins, and many others settled into the West. Remember how the land in which the Simarillion takes place (I believe it was called Bereliand), was utterly destroyed, and sunk? If so, many of the Gray Elves must have been also killed. How Elrond and Galadriel managed to escape from there before the entire land region went down under escapes me. So the Elves, once the mightiest of peoples, have mostly abandoned Middle Earth. After LOTR, there is not one Elf left on the continent. Who did they leave the land to? The Dwarves seemed to start out as a small race, mostly ruined from fighting Morgoth. Moria, one of their main homes was destroyed. (Another question: the Goblins there seemed to be living there, not like an army of Sauron. Can we conclude that this once was an army, but utterly fell into a state of anarchy, therefore becoming a microcosm of Middle Earth?) The Men you saw in the first LOTR movie, those were good examples of Men (keep in mind the fact of the Men at Bree, remaints of Arnor. These people seem to be degenerating back toward the uncivilized ways of the Harad and Rhun). Without a doubt, the vast majority of Men are uncivilized and allied to the Dark Lord. And the Hobbits are a very small minority. Without a doubt, the majority of that section of Middle Earth is covered with Orcs, and the rest by uncivilized Man. So, in conclusion, I believe that in the end, even though the Dark Lord was indeed defeated, this only saved the last vestiges of civilization on Middle Earth. That does not mean civilization will flourish. The vast majority of Middle Earth is still run by Orcs and uncivilized Man, and it seems like Darkness still rules the continent. Last edited by Dark Lord Sauron : 12-14-2002 at 10:41 PM.

12-14-2002, 03:25 PM	#2
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	You have a point there but in the end good nearly always prevailed Welcome to the 'Moot! __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

12-14-2002, 03:42 PM	#3
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	if you think about it, if Middle Earth is completly owned by Sauron and his evil minions, all the other races will be used as slaves or even killed. i'm sure no one would like to be a slave to Sauron seing as he is probably the most feared person in Middle Earth, so in a way, the races are fighting for freedom. That answer your question? __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

12-14-2002, 03:48 PM	#4
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Everything can be rebuilt __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-15-2002, 01:18 AM	#6
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	Just some points I would like to make: Isengard was turned into a fortress by Saruman and yes, Imladris is where Elrond lives. :rollseyes: Balrogs are still maia. What has the movies have to do with this forum? I'm pretty sure there were still elves in ME in the fourth age. End of rant. You ask is ME worth fighting for? Well, yes, if you don't want to be Sauron's slave for the rest of you life! ME is not empty, you don't need to take over every little part of the world. Isn't the beauty of Rivendell, Lorien, the Shire or Minas Tirith worth fighting for? __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

12-15-2002, 12:26 AM	#5
Silverstripe Empress of the Writewraiths Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Running around somewhere inside my head. So what are YOU doing here?! Posts: 1,546	LOL. That was a very interesting introduction, um...Sauron. Hey! Everyone, ever notice that both Morgoth and Sauron are now among us and we don't seem to care much? LOL.

12-15-2002, 06:07 AM	#8
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	It is often considered a "good fight" to defend your home or country. It is a fight for a "way of life". In that context ME is worth fighting for irregardless of population density.

12-18-2002, 07:10 PM	#9
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Well.... I don't think anyone really wants to work for Sauron the rest of their lives. Besides, he'll just grow in terms of power and go on to claim the Blessed Realm. I know the Valar are all powerful and everything, but if you keep giving up all the 'abandoned' places sooner or later he'll assult Valinor. Or maybe I'm just a pessimist. __________________ a violinist...

12-20-2002, 01:50 AM	#14
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Hey Lefty, what happened to your sig? __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

12-20-2002, 06:32 AM	#15
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Well, I'd fight for the Shire! smacks self over the head with shoe for sheer stupidity of that line Well, I would! And for the Elves' homes. Hey, the Men can fight for themselves, OK? just kidding, don't kill me please. Oh, and the Dwarves... Hey, what are axes for? Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

12-20-2002, 09:23 AM	#16
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	I think that Lanelf has a point! Everyone would fight for their home (except perhaps the elves, since they could leave). No one else had an escape. Their choice was to fight and save themselves, or become servants of Sauron. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

12-21-2002, 11:35 AM	#17
L@ur@y Elven Warrior Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Halkirk Posts: 208	A lot of people would fight for their home. I think the Elves would fight of their home.

12-21-2002, 12:44 PM	#18
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	Sam says something about that in TTT, come to think of it! __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

12-21-2002, 02:48 PM	#19
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	anything is worth fighting for under the right circumstances. you say that sauron controlled middle-earth? possibly some parts.. like his dominion of mordor.. the elves could flee to valinor. where could men and the other races go besides to thralldom and death if they hadnt fought? anything is worth fighting for __________________ Why can we not be sober..