The Emperor's Origins

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Quoted from Lief Erikson,

So if you are correct, you must assume that Obi-Wan was being very unclear when he was talking to Yoda.

I do indeed feel that Obi-Wan was being extreamly unclear to Yoda, but even more misleading with the Kaminoian Prime Minister. I feel that Obi-wan was more or less "going along" with the Kaminoians thoughts, one wouldn't want to raise suspicion and mistrust with those that may be doing shady business with your own order. Obi-Wan says Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas diead nearly ten years ago, then says that he thought he was killed before that. Yet what is "that" in that senence? It is not ten years nor is it neraly ten years. "That" is when the contract was soppused to have been made, which is another unclear time. Regardless of all of these fine details we are still talking about a time period of maybe 5 years surrounding 10 years before the events of Attack of the Clones. meaning as much as 15 years ago or as little as 5 years ago. I doubt it is that much but for the sake of argument we will allow that much time. The fact is however that durring that time Senator Palpatine was a notable figure in the senate and in the universe and so was Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. When Sifo-Dyas was killed Palpatine was either an acting senator for Naboo or acting Chancellor of the Republic! A Jedi is forbidden to be a politician and there has never been a Jedi politician, there fore Sifo could not have been Palpatine as a double life. Also since we are prettymuch in agreement that Sidious is not a Changlim he would look the same in both forums... I think that someone would notice that he was Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas! I am afraid your theory that Sidious is Sifo-dyas and Sifo-dyas is Sidious is not correct in the slightest. I have been through disscusions similar to this one in the StarWars.com message board and most facts and most people would agree with me that it is logiclly impossible for Sidious to be Sif-Dyas.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I am afraid Darth Erikson...

the past history of Darth Sidious is not revealed in the film, nor is the identity of Jedi Knight Sifo-Dyas. Without the facts I choose to follow the most common understandning on the subject and hold true to the idea that Sifo is not Sidious, Sidious is not a Changelim, and that Dooku was made to use the name of Sifo-Dyas to contract the Clone Army. Furthermore all of my ideas, theories, and spoilers pertaining to the movie were correct. The novelization is 99.9% accurate compared to the film, and I actually find that the film does not hold up to the book in the matters of consistancy, story, and length. Yet I will leave that for another thread...

[Lief Erikson]

The debate is closed . Conclusion:

The answer is still a mystery. I'm not sure, but that may actually be all right. I rather like the idea of Sidious simply popping out of thin air. He is quite a demon.

[HOBBIT]

you mean that the novelization of the movie is better than the movie itself?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I'm not saying the novelization is better, it's just... more detailed in some of the more mundane details. My favorite part that couldn't have been in the movie is the descriptions of Obi-Wan, like Obi-Wan in the force. The film is the selling point but the book is just a good read if you want more in depth than the film gives. I guess I am just stuck on Lord of Rings and expect all films to last 3+ hours.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Ugh! I had this figured out when AOTC came out guys! Sidious is the Emperor who was Palpatine!!!! He couldn't be known as the Emperor yet now could he? There wasn't an Empire. And, he couldn't very well go around as Palpatine could he? It's slightly on the obvious side once you see the third movie and if you know anything of the first three.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane

Well, Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane, the question was never who is Palpatine, Emperor Palpatine, and Chancellor Plapatine. I myself knew that Senator Palpatine would become Chancellor, who would in turn become Emperor Palpatine, when I first saw the original Star Wars trilogy. The question here is where did Palpatine come from? Where did he start? Is he really a Naboosian?

Another question raised by Lief Erikson was a theory that Palpatine may have been Jedi Knight Sifo-Dyas, however there is nothing to prove this theory correct and to my knowledge nothing plausible to suggest that this is even a possibility. Lief would argue with me their but I, as well as many, many other SW geeks(geekier than myself) agree to a theory I have posted previously.

So, Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane, I don't know how much of your post was "spoiler" but all of it was known to most of us, and me at the least.

[Master'sBaneSwiftSnowmane]

Erm, I came back to this forum (wesite...) a little too late and had to skim over the threads that I wanted to post in. I missed quit a bit in my skimming and I'm sorry about that.


The question of this thread makes a little more sense to me now...tehe.

[Lief Erikson]

I've come around to the Pelageus theory. I don't know about all of it, but I do believe Pelageus was Sidious' master. Therefore there is no need for Sidious to be Syphodias. It seemed logical to me earlier, as an explanation of Sidious' Force powers and background. The only reason I'm convinced about Pelageus is that

Palpatine said to Anakin that his master trained him in the Dark Side. The implication from his previous conversation with Anakin was that he was Pelageus' apprentice. However, that never was made concrete. In the second conversation (and there is no motive for a lie) he said that his master trained him in the Dark Side.

Pelageus is the only available option, then.

I do find this slightly disappointing, but I'm sure I'll get accustomed to and pleased with it soon. I was hoping that Sidious was the original Dark Side master. Now that I find he was an apprentice to someone else, that kind of lessens him a little to me.

However, on the plus side, this does help out the prophecy of the one who would bring balance. If the Sith never really went extinct, then having them entirely wiped out by Anakin in Episode 6 is a much more important thing then it would have been if he had just stopped a brief "second rise." So that's a good thing that comes out of it.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I was hoping that Sidious was the original Dark Side master. Now that I find he was an apprentice to someone else, that kind of lessens him a little to me.

Sidious was by no means the first Dark Side Master! The Sith have been around for millennium! At one time there were thousands of Sith Lords... but because they all were after the same ultimate power, they killed eachother off for the most part, until Darth Bane created an anwriten law of the Sith that there should be no more than a Master, and an apprentice. Pelageus may not have been Sidious' direct master but Sidious nor Pelageus were anywhere near the first Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Sidious was by no means the first Dark Side Master! The Sith have been around for millennium! At one time there were thousands of Sith Lords... but because they all were after the same ultimate power, they killed eachother off for the most part, until Darth Bane created an anwriten law of the Sith that there should be no more than a Master, and an apprentice. Pelageus may not have been Sidious' direct master but Sidious nor Pelageus were anywhere near the first Dark Lord of the Sith.

I knew that- you're misunderstanding what I was saying (though I'm not sure the Darth Bane thing makes sense). Mace Windu in Episode 1 said that he did not think the Sith could have returned without that knowing. Another Jedi said that they had been extinct for a millenium. Based upon those statements, I guessed that a return of the Sith had taken place, that someone powerful had turned to the Dark Side, and that this person had been Palpatine. Mace Windu's comments suggested that the Sith would have had to return. Syphodias' disappearance made him a likely candidate.

From the comments the characters made in "Revenge of the Sith", it became evident that the Sith had not necessarily ever been truly extinct. Rather, they simply went undercover.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Mace Windu in Episode 1 said that he did not think the Sith could have returned without that knowing. Another Jedi said that they had been extinct for a millenium. From the comments the characters made in "Revenge of the Sith", it became evident that the Sith had not necessarily ever been truly extinct. Rather, they simply went undercover.

Mace Windu says returned, he doesn't say recreated, which can be interpreted as you put last, that the Sith Order went under the Jedi radar. The Sith were waiting, bidding their time untill it was right, that time was obviously Palpatines time. As you said, the sith were probably never "gone" just not in the spotlight.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Is he? Funny, for one reason or another I was convinced Owen was the son of Shmi. Oh well, it settles it anyway. I'll have to pay more attention to dialogs in the future.

However Owen was related, Darth had no qualms about offing him in the search for the 'droids in "Episode 4" - it's not even touched on or hinted at in any way.

As for the Emporer, I'm not really up on all my Star Wars mythology, but finally watched the new movie last night - don't you suppose he was the apprentice to the "Darth Plagus" he told Anakin about? Or is that already an established fact?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Quoted from Lief Erikson,

I do indeed feel that Obi-Wan was being extreamly unclear to Yoda, but even more misleading with the Kaminoian Prime Minister. I feel that Obi-wan was more or less "going along" with the Kaminoians thoughts, one wouldn't want to raise suspicion and mistrust with those that may be doing shady business with your own order. Obi-Wan says Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas diead nearly ten years ago, then says that he thought he was killed before that. Yet what is "that" in that senence? It is not ten years nor is it neraly ten years. "That" is when the contract was soppused to have been made, which is another unclear time. Regardless of all of these fine details we are still talking about a time period of maybe 5 years surrounding 10 years before the events of Attack of the Clones. meaning as much as 15 years ago or as little as 5 years ago. I doubt it is that much but for the sake of argument we will allow that much time. The fact is however that durring that time Senator Palpatine was a notable figure in the senate and in the universe and so was Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. When Sifo-Dyas was killed Palpatine was either an acting senator for Naboo or acting Chancellor of the Republic! A Jedi is forbidden to be a politician and there has never been a Jedi politician, there fore Sifo could not have been Palpatine as a double life. Also since we are prettymuch in agreement that Sidious is not a Changlim he would look the same in both forums... I think that someone would notice that he was Palpatine and Sifo-Dyas! I am afraid your theory that Sidious is Sifo-dyas and Sifo-dyas is Sidious is not correct in the slightest. I have been through disscusions similar to this one in the StarWars.com message board and most facts and most people would agree with me that it is logiclly impossible for Sidious to be Sif-Dyas.

I've always had an inkling of an Idea that Sifo Dyas was really Qui-gon Jinn. He was after all a rebellious jedi, and I'm sure he was mixed in a bit more politics that he ought to have been for a jedi.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I've always had an inkling of an Idea that Sifo Dyas was really Qui-gon Jinn. He was after all a rebellious jedi, and I'm sure he was mixed in a bit more politics that he ought to have been for a jedi.

Well i don't think that Sifo-Dyas was Qui-Gon Jinn, I think people are misunderstanding who and what Sifo was. Sifo-Dyas was a person, set apart from all others, what i mean is there was Qui-Gon, there was Yoda, there was Obi-Wan, and there was A Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas was Sifo-Dyas. The only two questions are who was Sifo-Dyas and was it the real Sifo-Dyas who contracted the clone army!? As i have previously stated it is pretty consitant that Count Dooku[Darth Tyrannus] was the one who lied about his name and contracted the clone army at the order of Darth Sidious.
Also, a reason why I don't feel Qui-Gon could have imperonated Sifo-Dyas was because he had no affiliation with the Sith, and as the law of Darth Bane says there can only be two Sith, master and apprentice, Sidious was one and Maul makes two. Unless Maul made the contract(extreamly doubtful) then Dooku is the next Sith candidate to do it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree. Also I doubt Order 66 would have been programed if it wasn't a Sith Lord. Also Jango Fett has to have had some way of meeting Dooku, so Dooku order the army makes alot of sense to me.

[hectorberlioz]

Hmm...never thought of it that way before.
But we run into the problem of Dooku's age. Obviously he was still alive when Maul was, since he's an older man. So was he "just a guy" before Maul and converted to evil after?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Hmm...never thought of it that way before.
But we run into the problem of Dooku's age. Obviously he was still alive when Maul was, since he's an older man. So was he "just a guy" before Maul and converted to evil after?

Yes hector. Count Dooku, during the time of Darth Maul, was known as Jedi Knight Dooku. Dooku was a jedi, former master to Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn. It wasn't at least untill after Darth Maul was killed that Sidious lured Dooku to his cause.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Yes hector. Count Dooku, during the time of Darth Maul, was known as Jedi Knight Dooku. Dooku was a jedi, former master to Jedi Knight Qui-Gon Jinn. It wasn't at least untill after Darth Maul was killed that Sidious lured Dooku to his cause.

I'm an idiot. I knew that. Thanks, and sorry

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree. Palpatine was around in Episode I, as a senator. I understand that Ep. I was approx. 10 years before Ep. II, which as I recall is the space of time cited for Sifo having died; therefore, Sifo and Senator Palpatine would have been contemporaries. It seems to me highly implausible that Palpatine/Sidious be a Changelim, for the simple reason that there seems no evidence for it. The only thing I can imagine is Palpatine looking different after he unleashes lighting at Mace Windu, but it seems to me obvious that that is supposed to be caused by the lightning, due to the fact that so far as I know, he never looks like that before the lightning, and he never looks different after (except that in the original STAR WARS, you might say the look is more "set in").

On a side note, is it not AWESOME Ian McDiarmid played Palpatine in Return of the Jedi, AND in the prequels? It's just spectacular! He's playing the same character, 20 years younger, 20 years later!

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

I am afraid Darth Erikson...