Where does the word 'hobbit' originate from?

Varda · 12-13-2001, 09:21 PM

Does it come from rabbit + humans? if so where does the O come from? Was it simply random? We know that hobbits are the closest race to man, yet they live in holes and all of that... is the name meant to encompass these ideas or is it merely a random title?

Darth Tater · 12-13-2001, 10:20 PM

Hobbit is probably the only word in Tolkien's mythology that is completely random. When he wrote "In a whole in the ground their lived a hobbit" on a blank test page, he had never thought about hobbits before, had never thought about that sentance before, and really had no idea where it came from.

Wayfarer · 12-14-2001, 03:29 PM

Here's the legend for you:

The westron name for them was 'kud-dakun', or something similar. However, due to the deterioration of thier language, they called them selves kudak.

Tolkien 'translated' the Kud-daku as 'holbytlan' (a small imp or elf in some folklore) and for the kudak he substituted 'hobbit'.

kud-dakun>kud-dak>kudak
holbytlan>holbyt>hobbit

I think I have the westron words messed up, but I shan't bother to check. Feel free to do it yourself.

Ñólendil · 12-16-2001, 06:10 PM

Right. Kud-dukan was the old name, which became 'Kuduk' in the Hobbitish dialect. Tolkien represented this with Holbytlan and Hobbit, the meaning of which is 'hole-builder'.

That is to say: the Westron names were Kud-dukan, 'Kuduk' in the Hobbit dialect, and Tolkien translated these with Holbytlan ('Hole-builder' in Old English), and Hobbit (what 'Holbytlan' might have become had it survived into modern English). So 'Hobbit' isn't a completely meaningless word, though I suppose Tolkien had not yet 'discovered' the meaning when he first wrote it down.

bryter · 12-21-2001, 12:36 PM

What is Westron or what does it mean?

webwizard333 · 12-21-2001, 12:49 PM

Where do you find this information? Is it in the Home books, the Silmarrillion, or the appendices?

Wayfarer · 12-22-2001, 06:04 PM

it's in the appendices.

And westron is basically the english translation of what was the speech of northwestern Middle Earth in the third age.

It was the 'common tongue' of middle earth.

Wayfarer · 12-22-2001, 06:07 PM

westron=speech of the west.

Finglas · 12-22-2001, 06:15 PM

So the 'common tounge' is the language of Numenor? I thought that they spoke Quenya (sp?)

Wayfarer · 12-22-2001, 06:25 PM

they spoke quenya and adunic.

Adunic is the speech of Numenor.

Finglas · 12-22-2001, 06:27 PM

Wow! I am totally confused.

Wayfarer · 12-22-2001, 06:41 PM

Adunic is the Speech of Numenor.
However, the Numenoreans also spoke Quenya.

Westron is the speech of middle earth in the third age. It's what's translated into english in the books.

crow · 12-27-2001, 06:03 PM

If you want really accurate and easy to understand info on all kinds of words and names in The Hobbit, take a look at "The Hobbit Companion" by David Day. It's thorough, fascinating and illustrated.

markedel · 01-28-2002, 11:50 PM

For more onfusions-most Numenorians actually spoke Sindarin, which was also widespread in Gondor and Arnor(it was in fact the "official language). Quenya is "elven-latin" sindarin is the common-tongue of elves. Westron is corrupted Adunaic with elvish softening.

dark over lord · 01-29-2002, 11:24 AM

this is a very confusing thread i didn't even think that the hobbit language was real

markedel · 01-29-2002, 11:49 AM

Tolkien created some 14 or so languages. Two-the elven tongues were well developed. The lord of the rings "is" a translation of Westron the common tongue, and at the end of ROTK tolkien provides some notes on translation.

He also created dwarvish
orcish (the black tongue)
adunaic (numenorian)
and several other mannish tongues (rohirric-which is replaced by old english in the text, and other languages mentioned in HoME and Silmarillion)

An example of translation is Merry's name in Westron is "Kali" which means joyful.

Khadrane · 03-02-2002, 11:55 PM

Actually, if you look it up in the unabridged dictionary, it's a basket to hold grain in, (or something like that) but I doubt that's where Tolkien got the word.

markedel · 03-03-2002, 12:24 AM

It appeared with Queen Beruthiel's cats in the midst of a foggy night in Fangorn

12-13-2001, 09:21 PM	#1
Varda Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Carmel Valley, CA Posts: 146	Where does the word 'hobbit' originate from? Does it come from rabbit + humans? if so where does the O come from? Was it simply random? We know that hobbits are the closest race to man, yet they live in holes and all of that... is the name meant to encompass these ideas or is it merely a random title? __________________ "Life's a journey, not a destination." --Steven Tyler, Aerosmith, Arwen's daddy MySpace

12-13-2001, 10:20 PM	#2
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Hobbit is probably the only word in Tolkien's mythology that is completely random. When he wrote "In a whole in the ground their lived a hobbit" on a blank test page, he had never thought about hobbits before, had never thought about that sentance before, and really had no idea where it came from. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

12-14-2001, 03:29 PM	#3
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Here's the legend for you: The westron name for them was 'kud-dakun', or something similar. However, due to the deterioration of thier language, they called them selves kudak. Tolkien 'translated' the Kud-daku as 'holbytlan' (a small imp or elf in some folklore) and for the kudak he substituted 'hobbit'. kud-dakun>kud-dak>kudak holbytlan>holbyt>hobbit I think I have the westron words messed up, but I shan't bother to check. Feel free to do it yourself. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-16-2001, 06:10 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Right. Kud-dukan was the old name, which became 'Kuduk' in the Hobbitish dialect. Tolkien represented this with Holbytlan and Hobbit, the meaning of which is 'hole-builder'. That is to say: the Westron names were Kud-dukan, 'Kuduk' in the Hobbit dialect, and Tolkien translated these with Holbytlan ('Hole-builder' in Old English), and Hobbit (what 'Holbytlan' might have become had it survived into modern English). So 'Hobbit' isn't a completely meaningless word, though I suppose Tolkien had not yet 'discovered' the meaning when he first wrote it down. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-21-2001, 12:49 PM	#6
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Where do you find this information? Is it in the Home books, the Silmarrillion, or the appendices? __________________ Boo!

12-21-2001, 12:36 PM	#5
bryter Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 7	What is Westron or what does it mean?

12-22-2001, 06:04 PM	#7
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	it's in the appendices. And westron is basically the english translation of what was the speech of northwestern Middle Earth in the third age. It was the 'common tongue' of middle earth. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-22-2001, 06:07 PM	#8
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	westron=speech of the west. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-22-2001, 06:15 PM	#9
Finglas Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: here, there, everywhere Posts: 88	So the 'common tounge' is the language of Numenor? I thought that they spoke Quenya (sp?) __________________ If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?! Last edited by Finglas : 12-22-2001 at 06:21 PM.

12-22-2001, 06:25 PM	#10
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	they spoke quenya and adunic. Adunic is the speech of Numenor. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-22-2001, 06:27 PM	#11
Finglas Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: here, there, everywhere Posts: 88	Wow! I am totally confused. __________________ If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!

12-22-2001, 06:41 PM	#12
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Adunic is the Speech of Numenor. However, the Numenoreans also spoke Quenya. Westron is the speech of middle earth in the third age. It's what's translated into english in the books. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-27-2001, 06:03 PM	#13
crow Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Connecticut, USA, though I suspect my soul longs for another place. Oxford, say. Posts: 24	If you want really accurate and easy to understand info on all kinds of words and names in The Hobbit, take a look at "The Hobbit Companion" by David Day. It's thorough, fascinating and illustrated. __________________ Here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an elven princeling in!

01-28-2002, 11:50 PM	#14
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	For more onfusions-most Numenorians actually spoke Sindarin, which was also widespread in Gondor and Arnor(it was in fact the "official language). Quenya is "elven-latin" sindarin is the common-tongue of elves. Westron is corrupted Adunaic with elvish softening. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-29-2002, 11:24 AM	#15
dark over lord Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 41	this is a very confusing thread i didn't even think that the hobbit language was real __________________ The question which once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic, for now I find, I have no choice at all. I am a warrior, let the battled be joined. -dinobot, and me, before i went and got myself shot- The sleeper has awakend, i am the prince of all sayans once again-Vegeta-

01-29-2002, 11:49 AM	#16
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Tolkien created some 14 or so languages. Two-the elven tongues were well developed. The lord of the rings "is" a translation of Westron the common tongue, and at the end of ROTK tolkien provides some notes on translation. He also created dwarvish orcish (the black tongue) adunaic (numenorian) and several other mannish tongues (rohirric-which is replaced by old english in the text, and other languages mentioned in HoME and Silmarillion) An example of translation is Merry's name in Westron is "Kali" which means joyful. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-02-2002, 11:55 PM	#17
Khadrane Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Middle Earth (I wish) Posts: 670	Actually, if you look it up in the unabridged dictionary, it's a basket to hold grain in, (or something like that) but I doubt that's where Tolkien got the word. __________________ Few know whither their road will take them till they come to its end. -Legolas FRODO LIVES! ABORTION IS HOMICIDE

03-03-2002, 12:24 AM	#18
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	It appeared with Queen Beruthiel's cats in the midst of a foggy night in Fangorn __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

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