LOTR = Typical Action Films? - Page 2

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 11-03-2003, 09:02 PM

This is an interesting argument. Personally, I think you are all right to a degree, but none of you are totally right. (and what I'm about to say probably isn't right either, but oh well)

The movies had no choice but to use all those action sequences. Had the scenes from the book been left out, there would be an even greater outcry that PJ had butchered the films. Yes, he added the warg battle - but I personally like that scene a lot. ( I could have done without the cliff fall, though)

It could definitely be argued that Helms Deep drug on a bit. But I would argue that there had to be a center, main plot for the middle movie...something to be the driving force while all the peripheral things were happening. I think it succeeded, though there are many smaller things within this decision that I didn't like.

To have a movie that is within 3 hours and the ridiculously large amount of material to cover, you are faced with very tough decisions. Some would say, "then why add the warg battle," but I think it worked ok. The Aragorn/Arwen thing was very questionable, though. Anyway, nearly all the action scenes were from the books and necessary. The character development has been addressed and vastly improved upon in the extended cut (FOTR) and most likely will be with TTT as well.

Cheers,
BOM

thranduil · 11-03-2003, 09:46 PM

true there is no way to please everybody. But what jackson did was take elements essential to the stories plot and combine it with material that would draw non readers to the movies as well. Some say it is pointless action, but that is not so. PJ either had to
1. make a straight from the book story, which would satisfy a few "True Tolkein Followers"
or
2. add some good entertaining action that would produce good scenes and even maybe dissappoint a "few" people by not having it adhere exactly from how Tolkein told it

In scenario two the show is much more entertaining while keeping the same story (mostly), and making a show that many many more people would enjoy.

and I guess scenario 3 would be for PJ to never make the trilogy.

jerseydevil · 11-03-2003, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thranduil
true there is no way to please everybody. But what jackson did was take elements essential to the stories plot and combine it with material that would draw non readers to the movies as well. Some say it is pointless action, but that is not so. PJ either had to
1. make a straight from the book story, which would satisfy a few "True Tolkein Followers"
or
2. add some good entertaining action that would produce good scenes and even maybe dissappoint a "few" people by not having it adhere exactly from how Tolkein told it

In scenario two the show is much more entertaining while keeping the same story (mostly), and making a show that many many more people would enjoy.

and I guess scenario 3 would be for PJ to never make the trilogy.

No one was asking for a page by page book to movie adaptation. But the fact that jackson had action scene after action scene is ridiculous. Would you not agree that the Gift Giving scene was far more important to the movie than spending 15 minutes on the orc/troll fight in moria?

thranduil · 11-03-2003, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No one was asking for a page by page book to movie adaptation. But the fact that jackson had action scene after action scene is ridiculous. Would you not agree that the Gift Giving scene was far more important to the movie than spending 15 minutes on the orc/troll fight in moria?

True, I'm sorry for being unclear, I didn't mean a true page by page version. And the gift scene was more important than the troll fight, but why bring that up when it is in the special edition. No we don't see them use gifts except the phial in TTT regular edition, but in the extended it shows them use some of there gifts. Which I think is excellent that they have scenes like those in the se. Theyre scenes to please true fans, at least ones who have at least read the books.

jerseydevil · 11-03-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thranduil
True, I'm sorry for being unclear, I didn't mean a true page by page version. And the gift scene was more important than the troll fight, but why bring that up when it is in the special edition. No we don't see them use gifts except the phial in TTT regular edition, but in the extended it shows them use some of there gifts. Which I think is excellent that they have scenes like those in the se. Theyre scenes to please true fans, at least ones who have at least read the books.

What does it matter that it was in the extended edition - that is not the OFFICIAL version of the movie. The official movie was what was released in the movie theater.

thranduil · 11-03-2003, 10:43 PM

so if jackson came out with new footage, that was true with Tolkein and he added it to the movies he made, lets say he deleted arwens scene inserted glorfindel instead, things like that, it wouldn't satisfy you because it wasn't in the "official" movie?

jerseydevil · 11-03-2003, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thranduil
so if jackson came out with new footage, that was true with Tolkein and he added it to the movies he made, lets say he deleted arwens scene inserted glorfindel instead, things like that, it wouldn't satisfy you because it wasn't in the "official" movie?

BB- sorry Thranduil - no it would not satisfy me. He should have kept in certain parts right from the beginning - that's what movies are judged on. Reviews and awards aren't given on what is left on the cutting room floor. As for Glorfindel - I don't really care that Arwen took his place - as anyone can read in my posts - it's the overblown role that he gave her in the Flight to the Ford scene.

thranduil · 11-03-2003, 11:01 PM

Anyways it doesn't matter. Back on subject. Even though Jackson may have changed some of the smallest things into some sort of action, most of all it worked. For example it is quite beleivable that at the council of elrond that there would be contention between the elves and dwarves, and what should be done about the ring. It made it seem more believable, for the screen. I don't agree that Jackson thought that his ideas overruled Tolkeins, but that some instances things should be changed to appear better on the screen. If you catch my meaning. But there can be no excuse for helms deep. But other than that the changes were good, and acceptable.

GenX · 11-03-2003, 11:34 PM

A good debate over the effectiveness of the Nazgul. These creatures weren't just brought out from the Grey Heavens, they were tourmented and tortured with the rings they bore for hundreds of years. These creatures want the ring and long for it daily. I think that if I were stuck between living and death forever I would want to kill something too. The portrail of Nazgul as fear driven creatures is ubsurd these guys want some revenge. Jackson does do a good job.

Also I like butterbeer better than butterbur cassius though it is spelled incorrectly Thranduil.

jerseydevil · 11-04-2003, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GenX
A good debate over the effectiveness of the Nazgul. These creatures weren't just brought out from the Grey Heavens, they were tourmented and tortured with the rings they bore for hundreds of years. These creatures want the ring and long for it daily. I think that if I were stuck between living and death forever I would want to kill something too. The portrail of Nazgul as fear driven creatures is ubsurd these guys want some revenge. Jackson does do a good job.

Also I like butterbeer better than butterbur cassius though it is spelled incorrectly Thranduil.

Sorry - but there seems to be a lot of BB look-a-likes on the board lately. Let's see - there is Thranduil, Cassius and now you - all sound the same as BB. As I said in another thread - I wouldn't put it past him to create additonal names to make it seem like he has supporters.

As for your nazgul question - the nazgul weren't out for revenge - they were controlled by Sauron and the Ring. No where did Tolkien ever indicate they were physical in their actions. They were a psychological terror and instilled fear in people.

Melko Belcha · 11-04-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for your nazgul question - the nazgul weren't out for revenge - they were controlled by Sauron and the Ring. No where did Tolkien ever indicate they were physical in their actions. They were a psychological terror and instilled fear in people.

Anyone who has read Letters would know that this is true. Tolkien says that the Nazgul used fear and not phsical action.

And I agree that the action scenes in the movies was over done many times. All the action scenes in the books were blown up and made bigger in the movies.

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-04-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Jerseydevil

"Sorry - but there seems to be a lot of BB look-a-likes on the board lately. Let's see - there is Thranduil, Cassius and now you - all sound the same as BB. As I said in another thread - I wouldn't put it past him to create additonal names to make it seem like he has supporters."
_________________________________________________
Interesting theory.
It is curious that all three appeared virtually simultaneously, sound the same, and one keeps misspelling Tolkien (for deception?). Of course, it could be a coincidence?
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Originally posted by Jerseydevil
"As for your nazgul question - the nazgul weren't out for revenge - they were controlled by Sauron and the Ring. No where did Tolkien ever indicate they were physical in their actions. They were a psychological terror and instilled fear in people."
________________________________________________
Correct. Although they could take physical actions, apparently they fought the Rangers at the fords at Tharbad in daylight (unsuccessfully). And the movie Hobbit headlopping was a bit much, and illogical if they were trying to keep their mission quiet.

hectorberlioz · 11-04-2003, 01:42 PM

Quote:

I find it interesting that some of you love to rail against PJ's films for being...gasp...Action movies!!! How dare PJ put in action sequences like the ents attack on Isengard, the battle of Helm's Deep, the wizard's duel, Gandalf versus the Balrog, the cave troll attack, etc., etc., etc.!!! I'll bet that Action film hack Jackson will give us a spider attack and not one but TWO huge battles in ROTK. Yep, any action film gimic for the all-mighty dollar.
If you want to call PJ's movies "action stories," that's fine. But then prepare yourself to defend the Tolkien books against the same charge

Of course the Lord of the Rings books have action in them. But when PJ (as JD has said before) "dumbed down" the action scenes, and Add New and Unecessary action scenes in, Tolkien book fans arent going to be happy or ok with it.

Black Breathalizer · 11-04-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but there seems to be a lot of BB look-a-likes on the board lately. Let's see - there is Thranduil, Cassius and now you - all sound the same as BB. As I said in another thread - I wouldn't put it past him to create additonal names to make it seem like he has supporters.

Are you serious?!?!? Give me a break. I admit I'm weird but I'm not THAT weird.

But if you want to make absolutely sure that the sudden increase in Tolkien fans who love the films and the books is because of the growing excitement over TTT EX and ROTK and not because of me, then tell your girlfriend detective, Sister Golden Hair, to check out the IP addresses.

To paraphrase a quote from the Highlander series: There can be only one...Black Breathalizer!!!

jerseydevil · 11-04-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Are you serious?!?!? Give me a break. I admit I'm weird but I'm not THAT weird.

Could have surprised me.

Quote:

But if you want to make absolutely sure that the sudden increase in Tolkien fans who love the films and the books is because of the growing excitement over TTT EX and ROTK and not because of me, then tell your girlfriend detective, Sister Golden Hair, to check out the IP addresses.

IP addresses are not always accurate. Why would I have SGH check on it anyway? As for your other comment - it does not need to be commented on - although I do like the added "girlfriend detective"

Quote:

To paraphrase a quote from the Highlander series: There can be only one...Black Breathalizer!!!

Only one you - multiple personalities though.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-04-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Are you serious?!?!? Give me a break. I admit I'm weird but I'm not THAT weird.

But if you want to make absolutely sure that the sudden increase in Tolkien fans who love the films and the books is because of the growing excitement over TTT EX and ROTK and not because of me, then tell your girlfriend detective, Sister Golden Hair, to check out the IP addresses.

To paraphrase a quote from the Highlander series: There can be only one...Black Breathalizer!!!

One's too many. FYI, I have already done an IP check with no help from JD. Things seem pretty obvious. Also, the fact that the other three accounts are exactly the same, and yours differs, means nothing. It only means that you may be posting from a different IP. You insult my intelligence. I would have rather told you this in PM, but you have that disabled. Also, multiple accounts is something that is watched and brought to the attention of the rest of the staff. I haven't said anything whatsoever to you BB, so I would thank you to leave me out of your remarks.

thranduil · 11-04-2003, 04:12 PM

You are all worrying about nothing. Me and Cassius are not BB. Unless BB has two computers navigating both users, since me and cassius are both here.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 11-04-2003, 04:37 PM

It would be interesting to see all of you on at the same time.

thranduil · 11-04-2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It would be interesting to see all of you on at the same time.

really, would it?

jerseydevil · 11-04-2003, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thranduil
You are all worrying about nothing. Me and Cassius are not BB. Unless BB has two computers navigating both users, since me and cassius are both here.

Sorry - but you guys are never on at the same time. One is online and logs off and then another logs on. That's according to the "Who's online" control.

11-03-2003, 09:02 PM	#1
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	This is an interesting argument. Personally, I think you are all right to a degree, but none of you are totally right. (and what I'm about to say probably isn't right either, but oh well) The movies had no choice but to use all those action sequences. Had the scenes from the book been left out, there would be an even greater outcry that PJ had butchered the films. Yes, he added the warg battle - but I personally like that scene a lot. ( I could have done without the cliff fall, though) It could definitely be argued that Helms Deep drug on a bit. But I would argue that there had to be a center, main plot for the middle movie...something to be the driving force while all the peripheral things were happening. I think it succeeded, though there are many smaller things within this decision that I didn't like. To have a movie that is within 3 hours and the ridiculously large amount of material to cover, you are faced with very tough decisions. Some would say, "then why add the warg battle," but I think it worked ok. The Aragorn/Arwen thing was very questionable, though. Anyway, nearly all the action scenes were from the books and necessary. The character development has been addressed and vastly improved upon in the extended cut (FOTR) and most likely will be with TTT as well. Cheers, BOM __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat!

11-04-2003, 01:29 PM	#12
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Jerseydevil "Sorry - but there seems to be a lot of BB look-a-likes on the board lately. Let's see - there is Thranduil, Cassius and now you - all sound the same as BB. As I said in another thread - I wouldn't put it past him to create additonal names to make it seem like he has supporters." _________________________________________________ Interesting theory. It is curious that all three appeared virtually simultaneously, sound the same, and one keeps misspelling Tolkien (for deception?). Of course, it could be a coincidence? __________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ Originally posted by Jerseydevil "As for your nazgul question - the nazgul weren't out for revenge - they were controlled by Sauron and the Ring. No where did Tolkien ever indicate they were physical in their actions. They were a psychological terror and instilled fear in people." ________________________________________________ Correct. Although they could take physical actions, apparently they fought the Rangers at the fords at Tharbad in daylight (unsuccessfully). And the movie Hobbit headlopping was a bit much, and illogical if they were trying to keep their mission quiet. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 11-04-2003 at 01:47 PM.

11-04-2003, 04:37 PM	#18
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It would be interesting to see all of you on at the same time. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

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11-03-2003, 09:46 PM	#2
thranduil Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 345	true there is no way to please everybody. But what jackson did was take elements essential to the stories plot and combine it with material that would draw non readers to the movies as well. Some say it is pointless action, but that is not so. PJ either had to 1. make a straight from the book story, which would satisfy a few "True Tolkein Followers" or 2. add some good entertaining action that would produce good scenes and even maybe dissappoint a "few" people by not having it adhere exactly from how Tolkein told it In scenario two the show is much more entertaining while keeping the same story (mostly), and making a show that many many more people would enjoy. and I guess scenario 3 would be for PJ to never make the trilogy.

11-03-2003, 10:43 PM	#6
thranduil Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 345	so if jackson came out with new footage, that was true with Tolkein and he added it to the movies he made, lets say he deleted arwens scene inserted glorfindel instead, things like that, it wouldn't satisfy you because it wasn't in the "official" movie?

11-03-2003, 11:01 PM	#8
thranduil Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 345	Anyways it doesn't matter. Back on subject. Even though Jackson may have changed some of the smallest things into some sort of action, most of all it worked. For example it is quite beleivable that at the council of elrond that there would be contention between the elves and dwarves, and what should be done about the ring. It made it seem more believable, for the screen. I don't agree that Jackson thought that his ideas overruled Tolkeins, but that some instances things should be changed to appear better on the screen. If you catch my meaning. But there can be no excuse for helms deep. But other than that the changes were good, and acceptable.

11-03-2003, 11:34 PM	#9
GenX Sapling Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5	A good debate over the effectiveness of the Nazgul. These creatures weren't just brought out from the Grey Heavens, they were tourmented and tortured with the rings they bore for hundreds of years. These creatures want the ring and long for it daily. I think that if I were stuck between living and death forever I would want to kill something too. The portrail of Nazgul as fear driven creatures is ubsurd these guys want some revenge. Jackson does do a good job. Also I like butterbeer better than butterbur cassius though it is spelled incorrectly Thranduil.

11-04-2003, 04:12 PM	#17
thranduil Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 345	You are all worrying about nothing. Me and Cassius are not BB. Unless BB has two computers navigating both users, since me and cassius are both here.